Forum: General Discussion

Hi,
I truthfully experienced the real nightmare gig last saturday! It was for me a great chance to show how videos would work in a big local club. There was a chance that if the video show would work well, the club would hire me to do it constantly. Unfortunately all which could possibly go wrong, went wrong. I had laptop, Denon x-500 mixer, denon HC-4500 controller, external usb-harddrive and usb-mouse.

First off I noticed that there were something wrong with the mouse. It stopped moving time to time. I tried to change usb-port without success, i noticed that mouse laser were flinking, so it seems it did not get power enough. Ok I keep mixing and useing touchpad instead. After one hour real nightmare started, I lost hc-4500 controller but music and video kept playing (hc4500 soundcard worked still). I played one song with winamp and restarted vdj, still dancefloor did not notice problems, just one song from winamp were without the video.

After restarting vdj It worked again for 10 minutes, then suddenly hc-4500 disappeared again and music stopped because also external harddrive were disappeared with all songs inside :/ There were few minutes of silence before I get some cd to the cd-player. Then I had to play with cd:s only because it seems that laptop constantly lost connections to usb-devices. Shutting down, restarting laptop, swhiching power plug did not help at all. It was just complete disaster whole night! I'm technology savvy DJ, I have never played cd:s only before and it was like nightmare, no mixing, no idea what to play next (not my cds), silences between songs etc. Also club owner appeared on late night, so he did not see any videos, just crappy mxing with cds. So it was clear that they don't want the video show to the club because there were no video, just some crappy dj who could not please dancefloor. What a disaster.

Whatever, WHAT was the problem there?? When I get back to home and pluged the stuff, everything worked. There were some difference of electricity at the club? It felt like that laptop did not get power enough which caused usb dropouts. I've been DJing for 5 years with vdj and laptop, i have NEVER had any problem like that before.

How can i avoid this to happend ever again!?

Hi Jaakko.

That sucks mate.

Can you post a set of specs for the system you are using and if possible some detail on what was connected where. Detail on how the system power chords were connected and what external equipment was used in the club.

The more info you can put up the better.

Daz

I'm having the same problem with my soundcard, but this is when i turn off the lights at home. SO: did your dropouts happen when they used strobe or another power-slurping appliance (like CO2-blasters)?

Best solutions i can think of are
1. Make sure that everything is on a different power cycle. Sound seperate from light, at least.
2. Get a UPS, i'm thinking about doing this, as it just fixes everything everywhere instead of fixing it in one loc.

My advice to you:
1) try to get rid of external HD. Convert videos to mp4 or get another laptop with bigger INTERNAL hard drive.
2) get power conditioner for your gear
3) use another sound card for VDJ. This way if HC4500 disconnects you can safely reboot it.

A UPS is a great idea but be very wary of having supply voltage differences between equipment. This can be dangerous especialy if the video screens you plug into or the clubs sound system is on a different power supply phase to the power supply that the ups is plugged into. Potential differences of up to 415Volts can exist under fault conditions, between equipment supplied from different phases.
Be particularly carefull if you are working in a country other than the UK. Not all country's have the same wiring or health/safety standards.

With a UPS If a fault develops the clubs system may remove power but the UPS will NOT STOP.

Daz

A UPS has saved my butt many times. It's great when the power goes off and your laptop and hard drive is still going - and you're just waiting for the power to go back on. That has happened many times.

Well I had a ups fk up a night on me recently.
Seems when a power surge like actvating HP strobes would trip the ups switching relay for a nano second and the pc would shut off.
Everything else stayed alive, but that momentry drop was enough to kick the pc off.

Do I want to take that chance again?
no...

Sounds like something was slagging your usb power or an irq conflict was a happening.

I would run that latency checker to see how well the system is performing.
Also shut off the wireless internet if its on.

Just a thought did you check for over heating on the laptop was it near a heat source could it have been placed on a soft tablecloth and blocked the vent i had a similar experiance and it turned out to be over heating .good luck in trying to re create the problem cheers Adrian

run CHKDSK on yer C:

jaakko wrote :

all which could possibly go wrong, went wrong. I had laptop

Problem with a laptop running video? Where have I heard this compliant 3,000 times before.

If you are sure your issue is NOT your laptop and it's related to the club power supply my advice would be invest in a line conditioner that will provide your machine with a regulated flow of power. Although I don't use a lap-top for video I use this http://www.tripplite.com/shared/product-images/lg/LC1200-FRONT-L.jpg which keeps the power stable.

I would recommend this to anyone but ESPECIALLY the laptop users who like "living on the edge"....

:^)

djfilosoff wrote :

My advice to you:
1) try to get rid of external HD. Convert videos to mp4 or get another laptop with bigger INTERNAL hard drive.
2) get power conditioner for your gear
3) use another sound card for VDJ. This way if HC4500 disconnects you can safely reboot it.

Great advice, I have just upgraded my internal Harddrives because of so called external crashes. Just insure you back up all your music on a regular bases on at least two harddrives.

Hi Mate.

I just tried a little experiment with my laptop (I don't use the laptop for gigs just for home use). I ran some video files and mixed added effects and generaly loaded it as much as I could. Wile this was going on I asked a mate to repeatedly pull the power plug in an out. "No I dont suggest you try this at home". the computer never missed a beat even tho the nput power was going up and down like a yoyo. My thoughts on why are that the combination of the laptops external power supply and its internal battery forms what is in effect a UPS.

This would suggest that power fluctuations on the incoming supply to your laptop may not be the issue. I have however had my laptop behave oddly when connected to external mixing boards and displays. The only reason (and this is a guess) I can think of is that there may have been some floating voltage or spikes comming into the computer from elswere. For example the video cable. If you can get into the club aggain during a closed time have a go at running your setup without connecting any external equipment. If all is ok then hook up the video screens and then the audio side to try and isolate where your problem could be comming from.

Just some more ideas.

Daz

I always use bottom cooler with laptop and also cpu is not very high now with vdj 6.

I think the problem is not irq onflict or anything releated to laptop because i have never had those problems before, and also now i've been runnin vdj 6 at home after the gig with same setup without any prob.
I remember that immediately when the setup was ready at the club, the usb-mouse starts to flink (works for a minute, then drop out, then working again for a moment). I havent had even opened the vdj yet. Then during playing it get gradually worse. There must be something related to just this club and its system. I have had this laptop for almost 3 years and this setup for 1 year, running completely fine (there were some heating problems but bottom cooler and cleaning the vains fixed heat probs).

UPC is the solution? I also thought of powered usb hub, since then usb would get extra power but linking many devices under same usb port might be a bad idea.

just a point about usb devices and windows depending on the bios on the motherboard sometimes if you put your external devices in to different ports windows has to reconfig the usb port to the new device to check this try unpluging and then repluging in to a different port. if windows see that a new device has been attached this points to a problem

DAZ,

Your home voltage test doesn't compare to some of the clubs I've worked where the AC is so unstable (normally low voltage) that the bar lights will dim with ever pulse of my bass amp (QSC-5050). Your power at home may be stable just as the battery should also be stable power so I don't think this test would create the same working environment.

I'm very cautious to be sure my computer is not on the same circuit as my (3) power amps. Also, a line conditioner (Voltage regulator) is NOT the same as a UPS.

I have this problem with my M-Audio Conectiv, i thought this issue was only with the conectiv. I have done heaps of hunting for a fix the best one i have tried but is not 100% effective is using ferrites to remove EMI in the cables.

ferrite-Snap-On-EMI-Noise-Core-Filter_W0QQitemZ160305208044QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Cables_Adapters?hash=item2552ef5aec&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1205|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Ebay

I would have the cut out when activating strobe lights at the club or a small halegen lamp in my studio. . . i clipped a few of these on the usb cable and it has solved the problem at home and havent had any issues with the strobe light during testing but still feel nervous that I don't use it live.

The thing that got me is i could recreate the issue at home so tried heaps of things - even running my laptop on batteries didnt solve the problem. I've also put the conectiv on its own external power source. Also I have changed my settings in my device manager (vista)

system > device manager > universal serial bus controller >USB Root Hub > Power Management

make sure the "allow the computer to turn off this device" is unchecked

Let us know how you get on - always looking for new ideas on this problem - we need it solved 100% to save my nerves!

Renee

I agree with you comments with the caviat that I was not just causing power sagg but completely removing it. The point I was trying to get at is that on a laptop the power supply is so well smoothed and regulated by the time it arrives at the computers motherboard power sagg should not be an issue. Most if not all laptop power supply units are Universal Switched Mode and will operate from 100 to 240V and anywhere in between.

Of course the situation with a PC is totaly different and some form of external regulator/conditioner is well worth while.

I am currently working in a country (Saudi Arabia) where the power supply even in my home jumps all over the place. I use electronic regulators on all my electronic equipment. The house I am currently in has a set of Aircon units which cut in and out at random and produce serious power sagg when they start up. I also have a mixture of 110v and 220v outlets. As I am typing this and looking at the input voltage on the regulator it is wandering between 100v and 136v on the 110 and 198v 245v on the 220v depending on the aircon activity. Nasty stuff.

Have to agree with your comments about power amps I get exactly the same thing with the lights dimming to the beat in several of my regular gig venues. Indevidual feeds for power amps, lighting and DJ booth are by far the best way. The only area to be wary is the different phase issue I mentioned before.

Daz

Also having a backup laptop sometimes can save you from total disaster. We can learn something from djrenee. She has 2 computers connected at the same time and if one fails she will continue to work on another. No stinking CD's needed.

V good point.

Daz

Just putting DJRenee and DJMarze's comments together one area of my test which is certainly not representative of real world is the amount of RFI EMI floating arround in clubs.
Airborne interfearence could well be above the levels found in a home environment. And if its bad enough to induce interfearence in the cables used for USB connections It could well explain why the system works flawlessly in the home and goes wrong in the club. Some USB cables already come with ferrite rings built in so it could be well worth looking at getting hold of some or retro fitting as DJMarze has done.

Nice one.

Daz