bogart
In version 3.1 you had to change the gain to -3.5 or -4.0 for better quality. With the new 3.2 version is it still necessary to change the gain, or is the sound better at 0?
I Haven't dnld the new version yet. Will do it after this weekend.
I Haven't dnld the new version yet. Will do it after this weekend.
Posted Thu 24 Nov 05 @ 5:43 pm
bagpuss
As far as I know the Gain hasn't been changed, I'm still setting below -4db.
Posted Thu 24 Nov 05 @ 7:07 pm
Dj Xeo
the reason for setting gain lower on vdj and compensating on the mixer is mostly due to the sound cards not having sufficient heardroom in the DACs to produce an un-clipped or distored signal at 0Db (well a VDJ 0Db wich is all over the place on all my VUs). This is soley dependant on what sound card you have. if you find that a lower gain on VDJ provides better sound quality with lower output volumes then i wouldnt think much of your soundcard. at 0Db your sound card should produce a signal that does not exceed 1.5 volts, the standard line level, if you have your gain set to such a level that it will transmit a maximum of .75 volts and turn the gain on the mixer (or your speakers) up twice as much then you have just lost half the dynamic fidelity/resolution of your sound card.
will VDJ addopt an industry standard methadology for calculating gain so we can all use it properly without having to manualy lower it
will VDJ addopt an industry standard methadology for calculating gain so we can all use it properly without having to manualy lower it
Posted Fri 25 Nov 05 @ 5:20 am
bagpuss
Forgive me for saying this too many times this week, but the gain detection does need improving, it needs to be FAR more accurate, and of all the improvements/new features their could be, this is simply at the top of my list..
Alright any serious DJ would check their levels in the headset, but this is a revolution we're talking about here, and in the ideal world a DJ wouldn't have to worry about gain levels, I've had it a few times where I've been mixing at home parties and NOT checking gain manually, you might pull off an awsome transition but the largely noticeable loss in volume from fadeing over makes the mix fall flat and takes away it's credability before you get that gain level up manually.
The significant difference in volumes is not altogether often, but what is often is a varience in volume noticeable to the trained ear enough to wish for gain detection to be better.
I hope this area is perfected a long with sound quality as a whole, Virtual DJ is a very feature packed tool, it just needs to enrich some of it's features to become the ultimate, to be worthy as the industry standard DJ software.
Alright any serious DJ would check their levels in the headset, but this is a revolution we're talking about here, and in the ideal world a DJ wouldn't have to worry about gain levels, I've had it a few times where I've been mixing at home parties and NOT checking gain manually, you might pull off an awsome transition but the largely noticeable loss in volume from fadeing over makes the mix fall flat and takes away it's credability before you get that gain level up manually.
The significant difference in volumes is not altogether often, but what is often is a varience in volume noticeable to the trained ear enough to wish for gain detection to be better.
I hope this area is perfected a long with sound quality as a whole, Virtual DJ is a very feature packed tool, it just needs to enrich some of it's features to become the ultimate, to be worthy as the industry standard DJ software.
Posted Fri 25 Nov 05 @ 5:44 am
nickgoodman
Why not - Just normalise all your songs using your preffered normalising software and turn off auto gain ?
Posted Fri 25 Nov 05 @ 1:37 pm
bagpuss
That's an option to consider. Normally I'd be hot on the mixers gain when mixing, it would be an added luxury if the gain detection was perfect as much as possible,
I don't generally like touching my audio files once they've been ripped at high quality.
I don't generally like touching my audio files once they've been ripped at high quality.
Posted Fri 25 Nov 05 @ 2:01 pm
apopsisdj
All recent commercial tracks (when you rip from original cd's) are already normalised and maximized to death...
This is THE issue for today's recordings and the answer to: why they sound so crap..
when we have all this technology..
Dont touch your files.
This is THE issue for today's recordings and the answer to: why they sound so crap..
when we have all this technology..
Dont touch your files.
Posted Fri 25 Nov 05 @ 2:54 pm
Dj Xeo
it used to be standard to normailise CDs to 97Db (or -3Db) but nearly all are now compressed to death as appopsis says and normailised hence to 100Db (or -0Db) but this wont impact sound quality....................other than there wont be much diference between loud and quet passages of the music, but IMHO this makes music easier to listen to not having to reach for the volume when the track comes on song and again when its more tranquil and melodic...........
Posted Sat 26 Nov 05 @ 5:30 am
A Man and His Music
I am not sure I understand this whole thing. What did you guys do before software? I have been mixing for 37 years, and could care less about all my music being gained perfectly. Since the beginning of time, everybody has recorded their music differently. It's up to you to make the adjustments. A good headphone and a monitor is all most of us have needed to make a mix. My monitor's volume is set to be equivilent to the house volume. If it's to loud in the booth, it's to loud in the club, and vice versa. I bring in my mix to match the volume of the monitor. As for the quality of sound, it has been going down hill since the invention of the electronic keyboard. I am not playing to a floor full of audiofiles, sound engineers, or DJ's that think they know what good sound is. I am playing to a bunch of people that are trying to get laid, are high on something, and listen to mp3's on Ipods, for crying out loud. I don't know, maybe you guys are playing to a different crowd.
Posted Sat 26 Nov 05 @ 6:19 am
musicmatch
Hi
Quite right you are (A Man and His Music) The people are there to have a good time not to listen if the dj sound quality is up to scratch..as you say what did we do before software was around??you may get the odd person etc another dj in the crowd checking to hear you stuff up on your mix!!!
But hey we here to have a party,and it is the weekend !!!!!!!!!!!
Quite right you are (A Man and His Music) The people are there to have a good time not to listen if the dj sound quality is up to scratch..as you say what did we do before software was around??you may get the odd person etc another dj in the crowd checking to hear you stuff up on your mix!!!
But hey we here to have a party,and it is the weekend !!!!!!!!!!!
Posted Sat 26 Nov 05 @ 7:03 am
bagpuss
VDJ uses the Lame encoder (the best MP3 encoder/decoder their is), most of the complaints about sound quality are either down to one or a combination of these things:
1: Soundcard - theirs a big difference between the built in soundcard on a laptop and one that you pay £100 for, and a big difference between a £100 and a £1000 soundcard, the soundcard is often the bottle neck.
2. Mp3/files settings - High quality = High bite rate, 192kbps is the lower end of the high bite rate spectrum, most don't know the difference between this bite rate and CD, with harddrives as large as they are it wouldn't hurt to meet or exceed this 192, of course many encoders are crappy, use Lame.
3. Settings - VDJ Settings, limiter off, TS off, modest gain setting (-4.0 personally). Soundcard configured properly, good and stable connections on soundcard, mixer and amp, and ground loop emliminator (for laptop users).
4. Distortion - Playing through an amplifier/speakers at excessive volume is not going to sound good, opt for lower levels and retain the musical harmony and clarity, so kicks sound as much like a live drum kit as possible and not like mini explosions.
For me this is where most peoples issues lye, and any lack of soundquality I've experienced has been down to these factors. VDJ could be fixed a bit as far as soundquality is concerned, but it is good enough for most proffesional settings and not always the first place to look when your unsatisfied with Audio quality ;).
1: Soundcard - theirs a big difference between the built in soundcard on a laptop and one that you pay £100 for, and a big difference between a £100 and a £1000 soundcard, the soundcard is often the bottle neck.
2. Mp3/files settings - High quality = High bite rate, 192kbps is the lower end of the high bite rate spectrum, most don't know the difference between this bite rate and CD, with harddrives as large as they are it wouldn't hurt to meet or exceed this 192, of course many encoders are crappy, use Lame.
3. Settings - VDJ Settings, limiter off, TS off, modest gain setting (-4.0 personally). Soundcard configured properly, good and stable connections on soundcard, mixer and amp, and ground loop emliminator (for laptop users).
4. Distortion - Playing through an amplifier/speakers at excessive volume is not going to sound good, opt for lower levels and retain the musical harmony and clarity, so kicks sound as much like a live drum kit as possible and not like mini explosions.
For me this is where most peoples issues lye, and any lack of soundquality I've experienced has been down to these factors. VDJ could be fixed a bit as far as soundquality is concerned, but it is good enough for most proffesional settings and not always the first place to look when your unsatisfied with Audio quality ;).
Posted Sat 26 Nov 05 @ 9:02 am
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
@ A Man and His Music : best comment ever ! that is soooo right ! ;)
@ bagpuss : thats the issue... soundcards and mp3s. Soundquality is never the less more than good enough for any djs playing in a club.
- To add one more factor to the equation : the equipment that produces your sound. Music is not gonna sound the same on some PC speakers, your home HiFi or your clubs PA system.
There are LOTS of factors for sound quality, but in the end of the day, is just what A Man and His Music said! ;) Its probably more than good enought for the crowd there, who wanna dance, have fun, get laid....hehe :)
@ bagpuss : thats the issue... soundcards and mp3s. Soundquality is never the less more than good enough for any djs playing in a club.
- To add one more factor to the equation : the equipment that produces your sound. Music is not gonna sound the same on some PC speakers, your home HiFi or your clubs PA system.
There are LOTS of factors for sound quality, but in the end of the day, is just what A Man and His Music said! ;) Its probably more than good enought for the crowd there, who wanna dance, have fun, get laid....hehe :)
Posted Sat 26 Nov 05 @ 11:08 am
anewsome
A few points I want to make on the thread here. Don't ever modify an encoded mp3 file, except maybe changing it's ID3 tag. My mp3 files are all normalized *before* I encode them, that is I normalize the wav file and then encode it to mp3. So all my files are already normalized but that doesn't mean it will mix in at the same volume. This is what I use the LEDs on my mixer for. The LEDs on the mixer will show me the level of the song I am going to mix in before I mix it in. Pretty simple if you ask me and it works the same whether I am using vinyl, CDs or VDJ.
Posted Sat 26 Nov 05 @ 7:08 pm
djbambi
I agree, except for mp3gain and mp3directcut: you can run your mp3 files thru those and be sure that you won't impact their quality (no decoding/re-encoding).
Posted Sat 26 Nov 05 @ 7:21 pm
A Man and His Music
Bagpuss, very educational comments. I started at 192, but quickly went to 320, after some of my download sites, offered 320.
Posted Sat 26 Nov 05 @ 7:37 pm
DJ PHIL IT
this is vdj big problem sound i own three dj software bpm pro pcdjfx mixmeister and vdm when you put the same file in each of them they all play why! batter then vdj it's like night or day.vdj need to take some time just to do the whole sound engine all over in vdj.
Posted Sat 26 Nov 05 @ 11:54 pm
bagpuss
I think most of these programs use filters/pre adjusted EQ settings.., correct me if I'm wrong?
Posted Sun 27 Nov 05 @ 1:14 am
apopsisdj
I dont think lame is the best decoder, maybe is the second best as the standard is fraunhofer, (the founders mp3 and mpeg algorithms) also used on most music production programms (cubase etc.)
There is also a minor modulation of the sound when any kind of auto-gain is used, according to my tests, and my older bug reports.
Something for all of you guys to try:
Load a track to the left player, then go to options->extensions and change the mp3 from internal encoder (lame) to "general windows media player audio decoder", wmp uses fraunhofer.
Now load the same track on deck 2, and play the tracks in sync.
Left player will use the lame encoder and right will use fraunhofer for this example, if you follow my istructions.
Quick crossfade between the two as they play in sync and compare the sound quality...
Let me know what you hear...
There is also a minor modulation of the sound when any kind of auto-gain is used, according to my tests, and my older bug reports.
Something for all of you guys to try:
Load a track to the left player, then go to options->extensions and change the mp3 from internal encoder (lame) to "general windows media player audio decoder", wmp uses fraunhofer.
Now load the same track on deck 2, and play the tracks in sync.
Left player will use the lame encoder and right will use fraunhofer for this example, if you follow my istructions.
Quick crossfade between the two as they play in sync and compare the sound quality...
Let me know what you hear...
Posted Sun 27 Nov 05 @ 4:21 am
abnorm
What about the cracks and pops when playing with EQs?
Posted Sun 27 Nov 05 @ 6:14 pm
bagpuss
Unfounded.., I've used VDJ since version 1.x to now on a variety of computers and never experienced this.
Their is the bug where when you first touch the EQ you get a temporay mute and skip, so if your starting a session and intend to use software EQ then move the EQ fader before you start playing, I'm sure this was fixed in the 3.2 update though, I'll check it out asap.
If your not reffering to this bug then...
I'd advise you to look at your soundcard drivers, and whether the soundcard is any good?. Possbily even Direct X (be sure it's the latest version).
Then their is your chip and memory, if any is lacking in specs theirs your answer.
Their is the bug where when you first touch the EQ you get a temporay mute and skip, so if your starting a session and intend to use software EQ then move the EQ fader before you start playing, I'm sure this was fixed in the 3.2 update though, I'll check it out asap.
If your not reffering to this bug then...
I'd advise you to look at your soundcard drivers, and whether the soundcard is any good?. Possbily even Direct X (be sure it's the latest version).
Then their is your chip and memory, if any is lacking in specs theirs your answer.
Posted Sun 27 Nov 05 @ 6:27 pm
