Forum: Wishes and new features

Post here the features you would like to see developed in VirtualDJ in the future.
Topic: Wave Form Display Direction - Page: 2
And here we go again... Hundreds of years of human culture evolution end up to the same old question:
Does the Sun move around Earth, or the Earth around the Sound ?

:P

It's a matter of perspective. It has always been!
Even when you look on a turntable... You see the needle stationary and the record move "clockwise"
"Clockwise" is the only word we all agree because it describes a circular movement.
However on waveforms we have to deal with a linear approach. You must "convert" the circular movement to linear.
Sure you can choose one way or another, depending on how you want to see things:

You can choose to see the reds or the blues...
The reasons software engineers choose to select the blues as per the diagram above has already been explained.
And for the most part of it you should blame the first company that ever "thought" to represent the "PLAY" button with an arrow that points from left to right :P

If you are familiar with audio tapes (which I believe you do) then you will recognize the same situation:

When the tape was placed "upwards" on a deck (the playing head was on top of the deck) the tape itself would move from right to left. That was something which was confusing the home users since the "PLAY" button was indicating a "left to right" movement.
The arrow was correct though since it indicated the playing head direction over the tape (perspection of movement)
So the manufacturers though of a nice trick:
Let's put the playing head on the bottom of the deck!
Now the moving direction of the tape itself would agree with the PLAY button.
But the direction of the needle over the tape is the opposite... :P

Now the solution for cassettes was easy. However on the digital world you can't "rotate" the waveform 180 degrees.
Because if you do, all PROGRESS related data will display from right to left.
The entire word (with minor exceptions on some middle East cultures) reads and writes from left to right.
And subconsciously that's why it looks awkward to you to see the waveform moving from right to left...

PS: Do you like the fact that when you scroll your mouse wheel downwards the page moves downwards as well ?
If you do, don't get a MAC :P MAC's move the page upwards (they call it natural scrolling) because on MAC's the wheel scrolls the "window view" up/down on a pinned content. On the contrary, Windows move the content on a pinned window!
Matter of perspection! ;)

Posted Tue 03 Mar 15 @ 4:52 am
PachNPRO InfinityMember since 2009
“Popcorn, Fresh popcorn! Salty or sweet. Just $2“

Posted Tue 03 Mar 15 @ 7:55 am
jakovskiPRO InfinityModeratorMember since 2006
I take 2 sweet, thanx ;-)

Posted Tue 03 Mar 15 @ 8:07 am
Richmond , turn your monitor upside down,, Problem solved

Just kidding. Seriously it's a personal preference there is no wrong or right way for the waves to travel.

Posted Tue 03 Mar 15 @ 4:08 pm
Adion wrote :
If you put your turntables in the classic way, then the record moves underneath the needle, with the audio that has not been played at the right side of the needle, and the part that has been played at the left side of the needle.


Look, I'm honestly not trying to be sarcastic, but I genuinely am wondering how someone working for a DJ software company, could earn all those stars you have under your name and title, and yet not even be cognizant enough to realize which way a turntable rotates, or the dynamics involved... You are selling a product aimed at DJs. And for a DJ, turntable operation, is as basic as it can get.

The only thing you have related accurately so far in this post, is that the record groove passes underneath the needle. However, as I've already explained in minute detail in my posts above, and anyone familiar with a TT should already know... the groove with it's physical waveform moves 'rightward' (left-to-right), ...not leftward, as you say. Or to be totally precise, when in the standard configuration, it moves 'downward' in relation to the needle,. The only way your representation could be correct, would be if the record were playing backward! How many time do I need to say it..?

Adion wrote :
The main reason it is displayed like this is not because it's like that on a turntable, but because (at least in most parts of the world) all sorts of data is represented left-to-right, with left being smallest/oldest/past, and right being biggest/newest/future.
(I'm not sure if in Hebrew/Arabic it is also common to reverse graphs and timelines, although I can imagine it would)


(!) Adion... do you really think that DJs (your customers) actually care about how "data is represented" in different parts of the world? Or would you think it might be more likely that they'd be interested in better more intuitive ways to express themselves through their music? I'm asking a serious question here, by the way... <sigh...> This is like dealing with the government


Posted Tue 03 Mar 15 @ 4:33 pm
Is there any other audio software out there that has the audio waves going in the other direction ?

Posted Tue 03 Mar 15 @ 5:01 pm
PhantomDeejay wrote :
It's a matter of perspective. It has always been!
Even when you look on a turntable... You see the needle stationary and the record move "clockwise"
"Clockwise" is the only word we all agree because it describes a circular movement.
However on waveforms we have to deal with a linear approach. You must "convert" the circular movement to linear.
Sure you can choose one way or another, depending on how you want to see things:

You can choose to see the reds or the blues...
The reasons software engineers choose to select the blues as per the diagram above has already been explained.
And for the most part of it you should blame the first company that ever "thought" to represent the "PLAY" button with an arrow that points from left to right :P


Phantom, with all due respect... all you are doing is confusing yourself, with all these references to the "sun", "earth", "cassette tapes", "play buttons", "reds", "blues", etc. You were following the same pattern in our discussion about cue behavior. It's all unrelated, and pointless.

Let me try to put it another way for you: Since you love to bring all sorts of unrelated information and examples into the conversation, bear with me while I present one of my own, okay..?

When you are driving your car, it has a round thing that you can turn with your hands called a 'steering wheel'. When you turn this wheel clockwise, you call your self turning "right". Am I correct? And when you turn the wheel to the "right", your car (when it is moving forward) turns "right". Still with me? Now, the point(s) I'm making here is that with your car, and just about everything else that is directively controlled via a wheel type control of some sort, turning the wheel rightward (clockwise), will result in the thing (and this is important) that you are controlling with the wheel, to move rightward, also.

So... what you need to understand here, is that first of all, it is not a matter of perspective, as to which (blue/red) arrow you are looking at, regarding which direction the wheel ('record', in this case) is turning. "Clockwise", is synonymous with "rightward", for all practical purposes!

Secondly, it is not a matter of perspective as to whether the car (waveform) vs. the roadway (needle) moves left/right, when you turn the wheel accordingly. No. The only thing that matters, is that the 'thing' that you expect to CONTROL with your efforts, is moving conjunctively with (in the same direction) the controlling device being manipulated for that purpose. To put it more simply; when you "turn right", you expect the car to turn rightward ...not, the road. Forget perspective... you are controlling the car, not the road.

Obviously, I am controlling the waveform with my record/platter. When I turn right, I expect it to go right. Where's the problem?

Posted Tue 03 Mar 15 @ 6:04 pm
Richmond wrote :
Phantom DJ is not God

groovindj wrote :
I never said he was. What I am saying though, is that it's pretty clear from posts (or lack of) here that the vast majority do not think the world is flat - oh sorry, that the waveforms are reversed.

"The vast majority" probably never had the time or impetus to even consider it, one way or the other. That's the way it was handed to them, and they all have many other things calling for their attention. On the other-hand, some people lack the ability to think originally, usually follow the crowd for direction ion life, and are terrified to defy convention. I'm beginning to think you may be the perfect example?

Richmond wrote :
not for me or you to say.

groovindj wrote :
And yet you ARE saying - very loudly. Proudly stating that you know better than the rest of us dimwits who haven't worked it out yet due to lack of brain power.

Well... I hadn't thought about that aspect. Maybe you are on to something?

Richmond wrote :
The records, platters, whatever, those are our handle on the music, and the waves are representative of that.

groovindj wrote :
No the waves are not representative of the platters or the turntables. They're representing the music.

Now you're just being silly. If you don't have a legitimate argument, rather than blurt out something stupid, it's usually better just to sit back and listen. Of course, they represent the music... And, as I said: "The records, platters, whatever, those are our handle on the music".


groovindj wrote :
You really think those are backwards too?

Richmond wrote :
that doesn't bother me, as it basically just serves as a position indicator

groovindj wrote :
The rhythmwave is also a position indicator.

No. wrong again. The needle line, is the position indicator. Not the waveform.

groovindj wrote :
So you're saying that almost every VDJ user here is wrong, plus all the DAW software manufacturers and their employees, all the DJ software manufacturers and their employees, all the audio editing software manufacturers and their employees, PLUS all the millions of people who use DAWs, audio editing software and DJ software on a daily basis? All those companies and people are wrong. They've ALL got it backwards?

<sigh> I'm a patient man, but... You're trying to put your words, in my mouth. I only said that the DJ software guys have it backward. Why? Because like you, they were afraid to break from the herd.






Posted Tue 03 Mar 15 @ 8:34 pm
AdionPRO InfinityCTOMember since 2006
Richmond wrote :
Adion wrote :
If you put your turntables in the classic way, then the record moves underneath the needle, with the audio that has not been played at the right side of the needle, and the part that has been played at the left side of the needle.


Look, I'm honestly not trying to be sarcastic, but I genuinely am wondering how someone working for a DJ software company, could earn all those stars you have under your name and title, and yet not even be cognizant enough to realize which way a turntable rotates, or the dynamics involved... You are selling a product aimed at DJs. And for a DJ, turntable operation, is as basic as it can get.

I am talking about following a single groove. (Which given the zoom of the scratch/rhythm waves makes sense, as it relates to what's happening a few seconds before/after)
The record moves clockwise, so the part of the groove that has been played is on the left side, the part of the groove that has not been played is right of the needle.
The needle indeed moves from the outside to the inside, however I would say this relates more to the song position / waveform overview than to the scratch or rhythm waves.
I haven't seen any requests to reverse this waveform as well, and I doubt anyone would find it logical if it was.

Posted Wed 04 Mar 15 @ 12:24 am
Richmond wrote :
some people lack the ability to think originally

I'm beginning to think you may be the perfect example


Richmond wrote :

groovindj wrote :
us dimwits who haven't worked it out yet due to lack of brain power.

Well... I hadn't thought about that aspect. Maybe you are on to something?


Richmond wrote :
blurt out something stupid


Wow! You really are on a high horse up there, aren't you? What's it like up on that pedestal from which you choose to patronise the minions?


You keep going on about turntables/records/vinyl and how they rotate clockwise. So what? The rhythmwave is not a record. It does not rotate.

Surely if you want VDJ to be as close to a turntable as possible, then there should be NO WAVEFORM - because turntables don't have waveforms.

The bulk of DJs using VDJ do not use turntables and vinyl to control it. Of those who do, the majority clearly have no issue with the direction of the rhythmwave (if indeed their choice of skin even displays it) - otherwise there would have been far more complaints.

So it's only DJ software which has it backwards? And yet all these s/w types are displaying the same thing - a waveform.

You say the waveform on DJ software is backwards, but on DAWs and audio editors it's not. Even within the same DJ software, you have no (or not as much of an) issue with the songpos waveforms on the decks, only the rhythmwave. Très bizarre, as the French say.

Tell me, which DJ sofware displays the waves in the way you insist is correct? Any of them? Even one?



Posted Wed 04 Mar 15 @ 6:07 am
locodogPRO InfinityMember since 2013

Posted Wed 04 Mar 15 @ 6:35 am
So, loco..........are you a lefty or a righty? :-)

Posted Wed 04 Mar 15 @ 6:37 am
locodogPRO InfinityMember since 2013
That's between me and my tailor.

Posted Wed 04 Mar 15 @ 7:57 am
Wow!!

First one of the greatest plugins VDJ has EVER had gets booted from the forums, we are seriously lacking in quailty effects for both video and audio, again were seriously lacking in transitions, some plugins we have now don't even work, some controllers we have don't even work, people's systems are still crashing and this is what were gonna WASTE TIME ON?!? WHICH DIRECTION THE WAVEFORM GOES!?!? SERIOUSLY!?!

Meanwhile Serato is creepin up on us but were gonna argue about a stupid waveform that's barely telling you anything to begin with!!

Sad I tell you, just frickin SAD!!!

Posted Wed 04 Mar 15 @ 8:24 am
Since I'm confusing myself...
Can we agree on the following picture ?
Green is the vinyl, the black line points from the center of the vinyl to the needle, and the red arrow shows the linear direction of the groove on the needle point.
Do we at least agree on that picture ?


If we agree, can you tell me please at which part of the arrow (left or right) is future (part to be played) and which is history (already played) ?

PS: I don't mean to argue your wish to invert the waves.
I strongly argue the fact that you insist that the current implementation is "wrong" and un-natural.
I try to prove you that it's correct for several reasons.

PS2:
Put your finger on 12 o clock on the steering wheel of your car and move it to your left (your finger)
Your car turns left, right ? (Yes it does) :)
Put your finger on 6 o clock on your steering wheel and move it to your left again...
Does your car still turns left ? NO! :)
Please explain me why on the second case your car turns right since you moved your finger towards the left...

Thanks!

Posted Wed 04 Mar 15 @ 8:34 am
danydjPRO InfinityMember since 2003
PhantomDeejay, I'm like you, my logic is that the waveform that moves in the opposite direction.
The majority are like a brick wall.
They only see their logic to them.

On purpose, I found a way to work with like 7
You act on deck 1 by viewing the two in a catch or acceleration



Posted Wed 04 Mar 15 @ 12:04 pm
locodogPRO InfinityMember since 2013
So anyway there's this dress that everybody's been looking at....

Posted Wed 04 Mar 15 @ 12:12 pm


Posted Wed 04 Mar 15 @ 12:36 pm
PhantomDeejay wrote :
Since I'm confusing myself...
Can we agree on the following picture ?
Green is the vinyl, the black line points from the center of the vinyl to the needle, and the red arrow shows the linear direction of the groove on the needle point.
Do we at least agree on that picture ?
If we agree, can you tell me please at which part of the arrow (left or right) is future (part to be played) and which is history (already played) ?

Sure. We can agree on that. But for my other answer, let's use my own slightly more realistic representation:



PhantomDeejay wrote :
PS: I don't mean to argue your wish to invert the waves.

Well, that's encouraging, anyway.

PhantomDeejay wrote :
I strongly argue the fact that you insist that the current implementation is "wrong" and un-natural.
I try to prove you that it's correct for several reasons:
Put your finger on 12 o clock on the steering wheel of your car and move it to your left (your finger)
Your car turns left, right ? (Yes it does) :)
Put your finger on 6 o clock on your steering wheel and move it to your left again...
Does your car still turns left ? NO! :)
Please explain me why on the second case your car turns right since you moved your finger towards the left... Thanks!

Isn't that obvious to you? No matter where you placed your hand ("finger") in order to move the wheel ...you still turned the wheel rightward..! That's all that matters!

<sigh> I'm sorry, but I feel like I'm teaching a kindergarten class here. I'm just talking about simple, easy to understand, real world, practicality. ...not scalar physics! One could invent all kinds of impractical, irrelevant, absurd scenarios, such as hanging upside down, reaching behind your back with one finger on the bottom of a wheel while looking in a mirror and playing a track in reverse... Which way would it move then..? Hey... I don't know! I don't care! Honestly... no offense intended, but please tell me... Why the heck does it matter..?

I'll give you another example: One of my controllers is a Novation Twitch. It has touch strips which are intended to represent a turning record. A light representing a "sticker" or a fixed point on the waveform (I have changed mine to represent the first downbeat on every new bar), moves across the strip from left to right, which would be the expected (correct) direction. If you touch the strip, you can drag the light (waveform) left or right. It will follow your finger. But if I drag the track to the right on the strip, it moves to the left in VDJ. Backward!

Posted Wed 04 Mar 15 @ 2:03 pm
locodogPRO InfinityMember since 2013
I thought touch strips were more a position wave thing, but your problem is easy to resolve, whatever your touch strip script is amend it with

param_invert & your script

Posted Wed 04 Mar 15 @ 2:16 pm
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