djemcee
I have been using OTSDJ for over a year and really enjoy it. I found VDJ and liked some of the features it had over OTSDJ. I purchased the VDJ in hopes to swithc over from my OTS. The only problem is that no matter what I do, the VDJ sound quality is lacking. With time strech enabled, I get a double ghost beat, and distorded sound. Anything beyond just enabled (crazy, insane, super insane) just slow the program up and causes the sliders to not react as quickly and as smooth at if it were disabled. I put it on high quality, which sounded better, but again the programs starts to lag. I have a Pentium 2.8 ghz with 1 gig ram and I only run the DJ program at the time I am using the program With the time code to anything passed just enabled, and the program does not react correctly. So the options are for enabled or disabled. Enabled distorts the sound, and disabled gives me chipmunks. I have tried everything to get it to sound close to OTS, but no luck. I am using a Soundblaster Audigy 2, and know the sound quality is amazing as I have used it in gigs for over 1 year. I have a computer genius friend that looked at all settings and we both feel it's just the sound engine that VDJ uses.
The sound difference is so noticable at times that you could turn me around put me on the dance floor, and I could tell you if you were using OTS or VDJ. I know the next release is supposed to have a better sound engine.
Has anyone felt like not using VDJ at gigs due to the poor sound quality? I know there are tons of DJ's on the board that swear VDJ is crystal clear, but being a DJ for 13 years, you can not convince me when I hear the two being played against each other. It's really so bad that I don't use VDJ at my gigs. Not as of yet. Maybe the next version will be better.
You can always download a sample of OTS DJ yourself and do a comparison. I think you will notice a difference. By the way for the gain controls, I have adjusted them to no higher than +1, I have played with every setting that I know of, no luck.
If you have a secret for better sound, let me know. Please don't say it's the sound system, as it sounds amazing with the OTS and I know it's not that. I am using the highest quality JBL SR series, QSC amps, and everything else is top of the line.
DJ Chris
Silver Disc Entertainment
The sound difference is so noticable at times that you could turn me around put me on the dance floor, and I could tell you if you were using OTS or VDJ. I know the next release is supposed to have a better sound engine.
Has anyone felt like not using VDJ at gigs due to the poor sound quality? I know there are tons of DJ's on the board that swear VDJ is crystal clear, but being a DJ for 13 years, you can not convince me when I hear the two being played against each other. It's really so bad that I don't use VDJ at my gigs. Not as of yet. Maybe the next version will be better.
You can always download a sample of OTS DJ yourself and do a comparison. I think you will notice a difference. By the way for the gain controls, I have adjusted them to no higher than +1, I have played with every setting that I know of, no luck.
If you have a secret for better sound, let me know. Please don't say it's the sound system, as it sounds amazing with the OTS and I know it's not that. I am using the highest quality JBL SR series, QSC amps, and everything else is top of the line.
DJ Chris
Silver Disc Entertainment
Posted Fri 10 Feb 06 @ 4:16 am
djemcee
Just a note. In messing some more with the system, I noticed if I use equalizer on the Hercules Console that I have, the sound is crap. But if I put the Hercules to flat, and use the Audigy EQ, it sounds allot better. If I use the 3 band EQ the program has, it does not sound as dynamic in the change, but again if I use the Audigy EQ walla. Now I still am having the problem with the time strech lagging the program, and would rather use the programs EQ as adjsuting the Audigy also adjust my microphone. I would rather have seperate mic and music eq's.
Still tweeking to try and make this happen. When I first started OTSDJ, it took 2 minutes and your ready. Any brain dead person could use OTS. It's a great program, but sort of basic. Although it has the best tempo control with no pitch change.
Still tweeking to try and make this happen. When I first started OTSDJ, it took 2 minutes and your ready. Any brain dead person could use OTS. It's a great program, but sort of basic. Although it has the best tempo control with no pitch change.
Posted Fri 10 Feb 06 @ 4:47 am
PCGumshoe
DJemcee...
Are we talking AUDIO ONLY or VIDEO? This is important...
My experience with VDJ as an AUDIO ONLY engine is that it is flawless... the video arena is NEW and, sadly for the people such as yourself with that slow of a processor, you are GOING to have problems.
If this is a VIDEO issue... YES, there are internal decoder problems that WILL be (So they say) addressed in the next update/patch.
OTS, as I remember, was tempting, but VDJ is very supportive of the community.
Are we talking AUDIO ONLY or VIDEO? This is important...
My experience with VDJ as an AUDIO ONLY engine is that it is flawless... the video arena is NEW and, sadly for the people such as yourself with that slow of a processor, you are GOING to have problems.
If this is a VIDEO issue... YES, there are internal decoder problems that WILL be (So they say) addressed in the next update/patch.
OTS, as I remember, was tempting, but VDJ is very supportive of the community.
Posted Fri 10 Feb 06 @ 6:20 am
djemcee
Actually more a Audio only problem. I seem to have it addressed some with using the Audigy EQ, but I want the time stretch to be high quality or better and not slow up the action of the sliders and such. I wish the VDJ had a larger band eq for adjusting the sound.
Posted Fri 10 Feb 06 @ 6:43 am
A Man and His Music
I tried OTS, and yes it did sound very good out of the box. That is their claim to fame. If you want to just push play, then it will work for you. However, as a professional DJ for 37 years, I needed more then a basic media player. When I started with CD's, they sounded like shit. Not only was it a different dynamic, but CD's did not have any low end, when they first came out. Going from vinyl to cd, was a disaster. You could not equalize a system for vinyl, and expect to play CD's. Well, I have not touched vinyl since 1990. I spent a lifetime avoiding scratches, and pops on vinyl, and they have software to add it to music, to give it that retro sound. You gotta be kidding me. Who do you think you are playing for? People that listen to mp3's, at low bit rates, on portable players, with shitty little headphones. There has been sound enhancement equipment on the market since the invention of sound reinforcement. I have a dedicated eq, there is one on my Rane MP24, and I also have a BBE unit, and a dbx compressor/limiter. That is just my mobile unit. I play in a club, 5 days a week, and you would not be able to tell the difference, when i'm playing. There is a reason you were looking for something else, because OTS lacks features. I was using another software, that was working very well for me. I got VDJ because it also gives me the ability to mix video. Is VDJ perfect? No, but it is light years ahead of the others. You have to pick and choose, what will work for you. I can eq my system, but you can't mix videos with OTS. And that's just one feature. And now I have to go to sleep.
Posted Fri 10 Feb 06 @ 8:49 am
bagpuss
djemcee:
By no stretch of the English language could VDJ's sound quality be classed as "Poor", it just isn't perfect, the overall sound quality is good, I've played VDJ through various systems and everyone who has heard it classed the sound quality as excellent, but me being a perfectionist knows that it is a bit short of excellent whilst not close to poor!
VDJ4 is on it's way and the sound engine is promised to be brand new!, so when version 4 is released we should be talking about something else.
For now the best I can recommend for optimal sound quality in the current version would be:
Timestretch: OFF (chipmunks? how much are you pitching by?)
Limiter: OFF (this compresses the sound even further, not good)
Gain: DISABLED (disable gain and let all songs play at their default value, whether -5 or +1 etc, ignore this and match the gain levels manually at the mixer using the level gauges, when this is done sound is improved to a noticeable extent).
In VDJ this is the best you can do, however as someone said above a hardware EQ can make all the difference, even my home hi-fi has a 16band EQ and can enhance the sound quite well.
Lastly, for the best sound quality in any program you've got to consider your files, the format and the compression.
Until the new version this is the best that can be done, but I couldn't agree that the present sound isn't adequate for a club.., the main reason for sound lacking in clubs is blown speakers and the mixer in reds!
By no stretch of the English language could VDJ's sound quality be classed as "Poor", it just isn't perfect, the overall sound quality is good, I've played VDJ through various systems and everyone who has heard it classed the sound quality as excellent, but me being a perfectionist knows that it is a bit short of excellent whilst not close to poor!
VDJ4 is on it's way and the sound engine is promised to be brand new!, so when version 4 is released we should be talking about something else.
For now the best I can recommend for optimal sound quality in the current version would be:
Timestretch: OFF (chipmunks? how much are you pitching by?)
Limiter: OFF (this compresses the sound even further, not good)
Gain: DISABLED (disable gain and let all songs play at their default value, whether -5 or +1 etc, ignore this and match the gain levels manually at the mixer using the level gauges, when this is done sound is improved to a noticeable extent).
In VDJ this is the best you can do, however as someone said above a hardware EQ can make all the difference, even my home hi-fi has a 16band EQ and can enhance the sound quite well.
Lastly, for the best sound quality in any program you've got to consider your files, the format and the compression.
Until the new version this is the best that can be done, but I couldn't agree that the present sound isn't adequate for a club.., the main reason for sound lacking in clubs is blown speakers and the mixer in reds!
Posted Fri 10 Feb 06 @ 12:13 pm
djemcee
Thanks for the input so far.
I work mobile. No clubs for me.
Anyway, I made the sound much better by using the sound cards own eq, instead of the 3 band eq on the hercules external controller and it helped so much. I use the Hercules on OTS and I don't have a problem. With VDJ and Hercules eq's, it's just not happening.
The problem again is if I adjust the sound card eq for great VDJ music playback, then it messes with the mic as well. The mic definately would need a seperate eq. With OTS I used Hercules to eq and then I could use the sound cards eq for the mic.
I do have a quick question. With the gain disabled, I notice there is always a change in value at each song. I would imagine it is telling me how much each song is either more dynamic, or less dynamic, but not actually doing anything about it. If it was enabled, then it would adjust itself to make those two songs have the same output level. With it off, then I can just adjust the master volume myself if a song is louder or softer? Am I understanding that correctly?
I don't pitch to out of control, but even a little and I can tell that it is up or down. I have walked in on my assistant playing to a crowd and could tell if the song was 1 or 2% faster before even getting to the Dj booth. The tempo control without pitch change is one of the most used features for me. OTS rocks in that catagory.
I will wait until the next release as they say it's going to be much better. Crossing my fingers.
I work mobile. No clubs for me.
Anyway, I made the sound much better by using the sound cards own eq, instead of the 3 band eq on the hercules external controller and it helped so much. I use the Hercules on OTS and I don't have a problem. With VDJ and Hercules eq's, it's just not happening.
The problem again is if I adjust the sound card eq for great VDJ music playback, then it messes with the mic as well. The mic definately would need a seperate eq. With OTS I used Hercules to eq and then I could use the sound cards eq for the mic.
I do have a quick question. With the gain disabled, I notice there is always a change in value at each song. I would imagine it is telling me how much each song is either more dynamic, or less dynamic, but not actually doing anything about it. If it was enabled, then it would adjust itself to make those two songs have the same output level. With it off, then I can just adjust the master volume myself if a song is louder or softer? Am I understanding that correctly?
I don't pitch to out of control, but even a little and I can tell that it is up or down. I have walked in on my assistant playing to a crowd and could tell if the song was 1 or 2% faster before even getting to the Dj booth. The tempo control without pitch change is one of the most used features for me. OTS rocks in that catagory.
I will wait until the next release as they say it's going to be much better. Crossing my fingers.
Posted Fri 10 Feb 06 @ 7:11 pm
bagpuss
I assumed you would be using an external mixer? (hardware), Disable the Gain only if you DO have an external mixer, this way you'd adjust the gain (for each deck) manually at the mixer as you would with a CD or Vinyl.
If your outputing from the hercules and not useing a mixer then you are best off with Auto Gain On, as you said it matches the outputs of each deck (as close as it can) to be equal, essential if your not using a hardware mixer (with VDJ assigned 2 channels).
Hope that clears things up a bit :).
If your outputing from the hercules and not useing a mixer then you are best off with Auto Gain On, as you said it matches the outputs of each deck (as close as it can) to be equal, essential if your not using a hardware mixer (with VDJ assigned 2 channels).
Hope that clears things up a bit :).
Posted Fri 10 Feb 06 @ 7:20 pm
djemcee
I failed to mention that the Hercules is not used as my sound card. I use the hercules to only as a controller. I like to adjust my songs output myself, so I will put the gain in the disabled mode. There never seems to be that big of a difference with my songs that I would need it to auto gain for me. All my MP3's were ripped at one of those professional places that you pay a buck a cd for, and I had them ripped at 192.
What was confusing me is with the gain disabled, I still noticed the values in the gain box changing. I felt like it was still adjusting itself. Apparently it will always give you the output value of the song, it is just wether you want the VDJ to act for you, or you do it yourself.
Thanks Guys, Please keep all input coming. It helps...
What was confusing me is with the gain disabled, I still noticed the values in the gain box changing. I felt like it was still adjusting itself. Apparently it will always give you the output value of the song, it is just wether you want the VDJ to act for you, or you do it yourself.
Thanks Guys, Please keep all input coming. It helps...
Posted Fri 10 Feb 06 @ 7:42 pm
bagpuss
Yes it's reading and perceiving the songs level at pure state, so whatever figure it shows is it's detected level, and of course doesn't adjust it, cutting out this sound manipulation and adjusting the level at the mixer provides better sound quality, most people use auto gain, but as your aiming for the best sound quality possible I'd recommend keeping it OFF.
So yes to answer your question, auto gain = VDJ matching the gain levels it's self, changing them manually in VDJ is doing exactly thing, the point is not to touch the gain in VDJ at all.
So yes to answer your question, auto gain = VDJ matching the gain levels it's self, changing them manually in VDJ is doing exactly thing, the point is not to touch the gain in VDJ at all.
Posted Fri 10 Feb 06 @ 7:50 pm
A Man and His Music
"The problem again is if I adjust the sound card eq for great VDJ music playback, then it messes with the mic as well. The mic definately would need a seperate eq. With OTS I used Hercules to eq and then I could use the sound cards eq for the mic."
You are right, there is a problem. The Hercules is a so-so controller, but a shitty mixer. But that is just my opinion.You have to have the right equipment, for the job. My X5 is a great ride, but does not carry my mobile rig well. So I have a Town & Country for that. You are asking a so-so piece of equipment, to do 2 things, great. You are asking too much from the Hercules. You think you that you can eq your system, and the mic the same? Not!!! You can't even eq 2 mics the same. Get a mixer that has a seperate eq for the mic. So you say "Rick, I like my Hercules controller." That's ok, just understand it's limitations. I looked at the Hercules when it came out, and there are several reasons I passed on it. The main reason is "It was not targeted for the professional DJ, but the bedroom DJ". Now, some Pro DJ's liked some of the features, and are using it. That doesn't mean it's professional. Do you let your eye doctor give you a rectal exam?
You are right, there is a problem. The Hercules is a so-so controller, but a shitty mixer. But that is just my opinion.You have to have the right equipment, for the job. My X5 is a great ride, but does not carry my mobile rig well. So I have a Town & Country for that. You are asking a so-so piece of equipment, to do 2 things, great. You are asking too much from the Hercules. You think you that you can eq your system, and the mic the same? Not!!! You can't even eq 2 mics the same. Get a mixer that has a seperate eq for the mic. So you say "Rick, I like my Hercules controller." That's ok, just understand it's limitations. I looked at the Hercules when it came out, and there are several reasons I passed on it. The main reason is "It was not targeted for the professional DJ, but the bedroom DJ". Now, some Pro DJ's liked some of the features, and are using it. That doesn't mean it's professional. Do you let your eye doctor give you a rectal exam?
Posted Fri 10 Feb 06 @ 9:42 pm
bagpuss
Well to be clear about the Hercules (MK2), It is a budget device, rather than non proffesional, a bit like Numark gear, cheaper but still produce good tools that work well in proffesional settings.
The Hercules a good soundcard, good controller and not so good mixer, 2 out of 3 ain't bad and as I reviewed it before "The best bargain you'll get in the DJ hardware industry", a lot of bang for not a lot of buck!
The point is, it's a worthy addition to a set-up but as you said it's best not to combine it with other gear.
That's the difference between the Hercules being a proffesional tool and a "bedroom DJ's" tool, just how much it's depended on in the set-up :).
The Hercules a good soundcard, good controller and not so good mixer, 2 out of 3 ain't bad and as I reviewed it before "The best bargain you'll get in the DJ hardware industry", a lot of bang for not a lot of buck!
The point is, it's a worthy addition to a set-up but as you said it's best not to combine it with other gear.
That's the difference between the Hercules being a proffesional tool and a "bedroom DJ's" tool, just how much it's depended on in the set-up :).
Posted Fri 10 Feb 06 @ 10:05 pm
djemcee
I use the Hercules strictly for quick adjustment of volume and for fun with the scratch wheel. On OTS I did use it to tweek the bass, mids and treble once in a while. Changing the eq on hercules using OTS did not effect the mic output.
Other than that, I don't have to use the Hercules.
look at my dj system and you will know why I put a hercules on the table. I can not use any other rack mount equipment, nor do I want to.
http://www.digistash.com/data/06a81a4fb98d149f2d31c68828fa6eb2/full_1477_p104129.jpg
Other than that, I don't have to use the Hercules.
look at my dj system and you will know why I put a hercules on the table. I can not use any other rack mount equipment, nor do I want to.
http://www.digistash.com/data/06a81a4fb98d149f2d31c68828fa6eb2/full_1477_p104129.jpg
Posted Fri 10 Feb 06 @ 10:44 pm
digijoc-Mele
How come no one has suggested to djemcee that he should be playing vDJ at about -3db for best sound ? ... or did I miss that ?
djemcee I think it is generally known on these boards that if you play vDJ above these levels that the sound will be distorted. I also use AutoGain ON -> Match, so once I load the 1st track and set it at -3db, my entire set follows suit. I play in clubs too and the patrons seem quite happy.
djemcee I think it is generally known on these boards that if you play vDJ above these levels that the sound will be distorted. I also use AutoGain ON -> Match, so once I load the 1st track and set it at -3db, my entire set follows suit. I play in clubs too and the patrons seem quite happy.
Posted Fri 10 Feb 06 @ 10:58 pm
djemcee
Let me get this right.
Auto gain on, do you set the -3 on the skin where the gain knob is? I notice that when I move it, the next song is at a different gain level. It never seems to stay at -3. I think I am just lame for not understanding that gain knob and values that always change.
I will try it and see what happens.
Auto gain on, do you set the -3 on the skin where the gain knob is? I notice that when I move it, the next song is at a different gain level. It never seems to stay at -3. I think I am just lame for not understanding that gain knob and values that always change.
I will try it and see what happens.
Posted Fri 10 Feb 06 @ 11:02 pm
djemcee
I did it. I was never giving it enough time to load the whole song. I would just see it moving about when I first put in the song and figured it was adjusting itself out of the preset gain. What does LUL: mean? I would imagine something like line ? level.
Posted Fri 10 Feb 06 @ 11:06 pm
bagpuss
When you don't use VDJ's gain you hear the file as it is, so there is no manipulation in VDJ, as it's VDJ's sound manipulation that causes loss in audio quality it is best to avoid manipulation you don't need to use, for example gaining, excessive pitching (with timestretch on or off) etc.
Now what your saying is that when Gain is adjusted/used that it's best to keep it lower, this is true, if a gain is detected at -6.7 for example and you've got auto gain adjusting every song to -1 then your going likely to distort the sound (regardless of your mixers master out), -3 is good as a general rule of thumb, but you don't always come out winning! this could be said because VDJ's gain detection is NOT awfully accurate, although it gets the majority of songs about right..
With Auto Gain on, adjusted and set to the same low level in VDJ, sounds like the ideal world but I assure you it is not, as you'll notice when your mixing, some songs will come in too quiet and others too loud (proving it's not that accurate).
With it off you've got more work to do at the mixer adjusting the gains there through the cue (manually), this is BEST for the sound quality because VDJ is not manipulating the gain, and also because you've got more accurate levels on both songs, this is the difference between mixing by ear and mixing visually.., one is pre-listend and tested, the other is relying on a display which is not always accurate.
In short:
Use Gain in VDJ = Great convenience, quick and easy, generally fairly accurate.
Use Gain at mixer = More manual work, takes a bit of time and a good ear, provides better sound quality.
The choice is yours, for and against, trade off etc :)
Now what your saying is that when Gain is adjusted/used that it's best to keep it lower, this is true, if a gain is detected at -6.7 for example and you've got auto gain adjusting every song to -1 then your going likely to distort the sound (regardless of your mixers master out), -3 is good as a general rule of thumb, but you don't always come out winning! this could be said because VDJ's gain detection is NOT awfully accurate, although it gets the majority of songs about right..
With Auto Gain on, adjusted and set to the same low level in VDJ, sounds like the ideal world but I assure you it is not, as you'll notice when your mixing, some songs will come in too quiet and others too loud (proving it's not that accurate).
With it off you've got more work to do at the mixer adjusting the gains there through the cue (manually), this is BEST for the sound quality because VDJ is not manipulating the gain, and also because you've got more accurate levels on both songs, this is the difference between mixing by ear and mixing visually.., one is pre-listend and tested, the other is relying on a display which is not always accurate.
In short:
Use Gain in VDJ = Great convenience, quick and easy, generally fairly accurate.
Use Gain at mixer = More manual work, takes a bit of time and a good ear, provides better sound quality.
The choice is yours, for and against, trade off etc :)
Posted Fri 10 Feb 06 @ 11:51 pm
Dj Xeo
im pretty sure that the internal engine of VDJ has a headroom to allow you to play at 0db with contingency for peaks above this. ceratinly any decent sound card will not clip at 1.5 V and any decent audio equip will not distort when fed signal above 1.5v. I personaly dont find there to be any diff in playing at 0 -1 -3 or -5 db and im using high quality audio equipment. naturaly no computer software i have used compares to an SACD played through the same system (hard to find but my arcam CD player supports them, was one of the first to) SACDs are 24bit @ 96KHz and you can tell the difference! if you think CDs sound good SACDs are like, i cant even explain. the sound is just so lush, vivid and colourful. ne way lets not drift off the subject. i have back to backed virtual dj with other programs and only winamp seems to sound dicearnably better. when i use the onboard sound on this system (not the DJ one) i cant tell but i guess thats to be expected.
Posted Sat 11 Feb 06 @ 2:48 am
bagpuss
To quote Apopsis:
"The older bug report about how gain is alter the original sound when applyed (add distortion/modulation). Auto-gain or manual, it doesnt matter.
quote from my old post:
"i generated some "pink noise" and "white noise" samples (for the tests)
I was VERY SUPRISED how virtual dj altered the sound adding "harmonics" to the original signal. It was not only visible but very very audible too.
What i found is: At every gain setting different than the original level (even for 0.1...) of the song, distortion and harmonics was added"
full post here:
http://www.virtualdj.com/forums/14214/Bugs_report/AUTO-Gain_distortion_BUG.html?
I can personally verify these observations, bare in mind though the current sound engine is soon to be history.
"The older bug report about how gain is alter the original sound when applyed (add distortion/modulation). Auto-gain or manual, it doesnt matter.
quote from my old post:
"i generated some "pink noise" and "white noise" samples (for the tests)
I was VERY SUPRISED how virtual dj altered the sound adding "harmonics" to the original signal. It was not only visible but very very audible too.
What i found is: At every gain setting different than the original level (even for 0.1...) of the song, distortion and harmonics was added"
full post here:
http://www.virtualdj.com/forums/14214/Bugs_report/AUTO-Gain_distortion_BUG.html?
I can personally verify these observations, bare in mind though the current sound engine is soon to be history.
Posted Sat 11 Feb 06 @ 3:10 am
DJ PHIL IT
djemcee i like your setup how did you get to setup your monitor like this ?
Posted Sat 11 Feb 06 @ 4:15 pm
