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Topic: Information about Professional Audio Interfaces for VDJ

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DAVEFROMLONDON wrote :

i finally have 2 machines running vdj perfectly(after months of crashes). an ibuypower gaming machine from microcenter and an hp dv9000 laptop. both vista clean and v5.6 vdj. both have on board realtek sound and i'm using the headphone output jack to stereo lead input on my physical mixer. question 1: will I get appreciably better sound by using a dedicated soundcard on the pc and a usb soundcard on the laptop ? question 2: am I asking for problems doing the above on the pc and or the laptop...I see lots of postings with problems on the maya card etc



I'd say that yes, you would get better sound by having a proper professional audio interface for your computers. There are a good number of these types of interfaces available - and keep in mind that I'm not talking about a Creative Labs Audigy, X-Fi or similar.


Popular brands of pro audio interfaces include:
M-Audio (i.e. Firewire Audiophile, USB Conectiv, Delta 44 PCI),
http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=products.list&ID=mobileinterfaces
http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=products.list&ID=pciinterfaces
http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=products.list&ID=dj

E-MU (now owned by Creative, i.e. 1616 PCI or 1616 PCMCIA)
http://www.emu.com/products/welcome.asp?category=505

ESI Audio (i.e. U46 DJ, Maya44 USB, GIGAPort AG)
http://www.esi-audio.com/products/

RME Audio (i.e. Fireface 400)
http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products.php

Presonus (i.e. FireBox)
http://www.presonus.com/products.html

MOTU (Mark of the Unicorn, i.e. Ultralite, Traveler)
http://www.motu.com/products


What are the advantages to a computer based DJ of having a professional audio interface?

Here are some of them:


  • Often onboard sound has lots of system noise inherent in it. A decent professional audio interface will generally have very clean, pure sound.
  • Pro interfaces will have higher specs - better signal to noise ratios, often higher output levels, etc. than onboard sound or most consumer products. This means that it will sound better, although this difference is probably negigible in a live DJ scenario - it's more relevant to recording and studio scenarios.
  • Pro interfaces will support ASIO drivers and sometimes other high performace drivers, making them suitable for professional audio applications. One main difference of ASIO over WDM or Wave drivers is that ASIO offers much lower latency (perhaps between 2-12 ms, as opposed to 32 or 64 ms) which means that when your computer plays audio, you hear it faster, and more real-time.
  • The better the interface, the lower the latency you can achieve, generally
  • Some interfaces have more inputs and outputs, and other features like headphone jacks, microphone preamps, etc. VirtualDJ can use two pairs of inputs for Timecode control (i.e. from Turntables), and three pairs of outputs for audio out - 2 pairs from each of your two decks, and one pair from the sampler.
  • Many pro interfaces have MIDI in/out - if you have a MIDI controller, VirtualDJ can use it - you can assign functions to each knob, button, key, slider, etc.
  • Many interfaces have features that are only relevant to specific recording or audio production scenarios - if you never ever want to do recording, then you can spend a fair bit less money.
  • You can get interfaces for all kinds of Busses - USB 1/2, Firewire, PCI, PCI-Express, PCMIA, Expresscard, etc. The very high end ones currently tend to be Firewire or PCI. A USB interface will probably be the easiest to use on any computer you happen to come across and is easy to hot swap with other computers.



So, DaveFromLondon - to answer your questions:

  1. Yes, you will get appreciably better sound, but you will also get the benefits listed above, and most importantly you will get more control of how you can use your sound and assign your inputs and outputs.

  2. I wouldn't say that by buying an audio interface, you are "asking for problems" but if things are working perfectly now, keep in mind that due to the high performance nature of ASIO drivers, you may need to configure and tweak some settings in your sound cards. Personally my luck has been hit and miss with getting perfectly clean sound out of Vista all the time, but if things are sounding clean for you, then it should be no problem to use an audio interface with ASIO drivers.
 
Posted Sun 06 Jan 08 @ 1:13 pm
I suspect the difference is indescernable to the DJ audience, I have an older machine with a E-MU 1212 card - I'm going to A/B it vs the HP laptop with om board realtek sound........it just seems that the on board cards have come a long way......and there are a lot of postings of problems with the maya usb cards
 
the realtek card vs an emu 1212 is going to favor the emu and be highly discernable, trust me. when i bought my alienware it had a 5.1 surround reltek card and i wondered if it would be any good compared to my crappy m-audio (supcaon, m-audio is not in the pro class of gear, but the rest you listed certainly is). i figured since the realtek was actually part of the machine, maybe it would be closer to the bus and hence faster performing? NOT. For one, its not an ASIO architecture, secondly the signal/noise ratio is not very high. Latency is much higher where I can muster 2ms from the M-audio firewire. Performance wise, it's just not snappy and the sound quality is not as crisp.

If you have a laptop, go cardbus. The Emu 1616M is an awesome piece of kit, I highly recommend it. USB and Firewire are great for standard audio applications, but not top of the line. There is a chip on both firewire and usb that separates the device from the databus which creates a minimum amount of latency by design. Cardbus and expresscard are simply connections to the databus which inherintly removes the possibility for the 'minimum latency'. Disclaimer, minimum latency is an abstract concept which is very highly mutable by design quality. But seriously, an Emu1616M with the Digidesign DAC is a great piece of gear with a very very sweet sound. Check it out...

Regarding your comment about being indescernable to the DJ audience, it depends on your style of djing. I find that DJs who are quite aggressive in their style will utilize audio gear on a level that producers dont. Being a member of both crowds, I newly appreciate certain qualities for gear. Previously being concerned about good quality DAC is still around, but good stable multi-channel record and playback was a must. Any onboard bouncing is also favored. However with VDJ, having a fast response on playback is important where it was not before. Hitting cue, cue,cue, play and noting that 1-30ms latency is paramount if you are a DJ like me that drops mixes in directly with no fading whatsoever. For the turntablism experience it's even more important. Sure serato is great, but you need to take time getting used to the latency (no this is not a serato vs vdj argument, so leave it at home). VDJ agreeably could be better in that department, but if you know what youre doing with gear, VDJ potentially can get much closer to the real experience of scratching that serato can purely by technical design. I've experienced it myself with an EMU 1616M, was very close to the natural feel of scratching. So on this instance, as a DJ I'm alot rougher on my audio gear then I ever was as a producer. So I need less channels in and out, but I still need a crisp sound and less latency than I was ever willing to put up with before...
 
Paz75.thanks for a great response. there is a posting on VDJ stating HP pPavillion laptops having problems with USB soundcards ( quotes from HP engineers apparently)......I'm paranoid about VDJ freezing.have finally fixed it but am using on board sound and am scared to touch the now working machine, even scared to try anything even if I then de-install or refresh windows to an earlier state.I'm that paranoid due to the wierd reasons for VDJ freezing and the hundreds of hours of work to fix the problems.......a single freeze is not allowed in my business. That said, do you think the emu 1616 cardbus will AVOID the problems cited with the HP laptop and USB ?
Next question....I came up with another idea http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/44/74/DJM-800/media.html is a digital mixer that takes spdf direct from PC or laptop(with dock station) into Pioneer mixer. this solves my problem of not TOUCHING my pc or laptop and letting the mixer handle the Digital to Audio conversion. I assume Pioneer has done a good job on the DAC.what do you think ? ( I only auto mix, I dont scratch, just play the VOB files in automix )
 
I DO ONLY USE HP PAVILION WITH USB CARDS AND NEVER HAD A PROBLEM
if you just use one output and you do not need preview or headphones anything with pcm input should externaly process the sound d/a conversion, for you the pio will be a waiste but will look good!
 
can you explain what you mean by PCM [anything with pcm input should externaly process the sound d/a conversion, ]
also [for you the pio will be a waiste but will look good! ].......if I use the spdf out from the laptop then I need something external to convert digital to analog...are you suggesdting there is another device that I can use that does not require ANY software loading on the PC
 
ok.i figured out PCM.......i think you are advising an external device to convert sp/dif out to analog.but I need the device to be stand alone ie NO software or drivers for the pc. does the E-MU 0404 offer this ?.anything else ? It seems the Pioneer Mixer does this, ie it inputs sp/dif....I assume the mixer does not require software on the pc..just requires the spdif cable from the pc......I'd rather not buy a mxer just to do this
 
from E-MU. this seems to indicate I can use sp/dif out of pc into 0404 without drivers on the PC - do you agree ? will I be getting full audio quality with this method ?

[About direct monitoring on the USB 0404 and USB 0202?
What is it?

Direct monitoring allows the user to monitor inputs without having any software open. It can also be used as an alternative to software monitoring for users the desire the lowest latency monitoring possible.

How do I enable it?

Press the Direct Monitor button on the 0404 USB Interface, changing the output destination between Main, SPDIF, or OFF. This button selects where the direct monitor output is sent to. If both a SPDIF and analog signal are present, it mixes them. The rotary encoder knob controls the Direct Monitor Volume.]
 
Heh... it seems that everybody has trouble spelling my name. If only I had a normal nickname...

Paz75, I don't think it's accurate or fair to say that no M-Audio gear is in the "Professional" class. It is true that many of their products tend to be targeted for introductory users of audio, and that they do have a lot of low end products, but some of their products, like the Delta 1010, for example, are definitely squarely targeted at the pro market. I'm not saying it's all the best gear, far from it, but they do have some good products, and much of their stuff is very viable (and affordable) for the use that VDJ users would require it for.

Personally, I would agree that the average noisy intoxicated patron of a bar with only so-so acoustics, and speakers of varying quality haphazardly installed all over the place is not going to fully appreciate the subtle nuances one might hear between using a crummy onboard DAC and a $1500 studio audio interface...

But on the other hand, if you're a professional DJ, you'll want things to sound as good as they can, and the cost of a $150 plug'n'play audio interface shouldn't stop you from having that part of your setup taken care of. I suppose in a nice venue with a mature crowd consisting of a lot of audiophiles or the like (perhaps a posh lounge) with great acoustics at reasonable sound levels and an expertly configured PA system, you'd notice things like system noise if you listened.

Just my opinion... I tend to DJ in places like the former that I described, and I can tell you that unless something is very obviously wrong, nobody has ever noticed small glitches in my sound other than me (that I know of).
 
my issue is that VDJ seems to have issues with soundcards & vista. Particularly USB from laptop. I would install a soundcard in a heartbeat, I actually have an EMU 1212 on an old XP machine but I now have 2 Vista / v5.0 machines running flawlessley but with on board sound and I'm reluctant to even install and then de-install a sound card driver...such has been my prior experience with VDJ crashing intermittantly. It now runs perfect, but with no 2nd sound card. I'm leaning towards two DAC that I have fiund that do NOT need any software on the PC or laptop.meerly come out of sp/dif out from PC or Laptop and go into sp/dif input on remote DAC.....any downside to this strategy.
 
PCM - stands for pulse code modulation (stereo PCM mode is a standard stereo S/PDIF signal)
so anything with a digital input and a d/a decoder should decode your spdif signal like a cd recorder, an audio receiver, a dat or minidisc recorder,
 
rme ADI -2 and EMU 0404usb both run stand alone WITHOUT software on the PC. I'm planning on using one of these with the sp/dif (orange rca like jack) out of PC, into converter and then to mixer. amp , speaker etc. What am I missing here ? since the drivers for Maya44 or other soundcards seem to effect VDJ performance it seems to me this is the smart path. comment ?
 
dave, i think what you should do, which is what i do, go find a store that has the gear in stock and just ask them to let you try it out on the spot. predownload the drivers from the net beforehand so you dont open the cd packages, and just try it out. if the store is willing to let you spend some time making the right investment, they are worth creating a long lasting relationship. its all about the match and not the sale that counts.

a friend lent me his 1616 (not even the m version which has higher quality DACs) and I really tried to beat the crap out of vdj. this was also on my old crappy acer laptop which i had crashing problems with vdj. there were certain things that could reliably crash vdj, like playing both decks and then trying to pre-listen a third track (back in the 4x days). with the 1616m i simply could not make it crash and it reliably ran on 1ms latency with no hiccups.
 
agree.......just checjing in theory, if a DAC runs completely stand alone as hardware, using sp/dif in and analog out, by using the sp/dif out from pc and putting NOTHING on the pc to run sound seems to me to give VDJ and Vista one less thing to do while maintaining professional sound conversion from the stand alone box.gien the 1000s of postings that refer to crashes and soundcards etc it seems this makes sense and would welcome others opinion on the sound quality of this method. think EMU 0404 usb runs stand alone, I know that the adi-2 ONLY runs stand alone but at 500 euro not cheap. I'm double checking with EMU, they tell me it needs attaching to a pc once to configure it, then can run stand alone..my question to them is can I attach to a development machine to configure then run on production machine WITHOUT any emu software or drivers on the production machine.my guess is yes but I await their email support
 


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