Sign In:     

Forum: General Discussion

Topic: Virtual dj 8 sound quality - Page: 1

This part of topic is old and might contain outdated or incorrect information

Hi all
i have a question that keeps me wondering
how can i adjust virtual dj 8 to be load and clear like the cdj and djm sound quality
it seems that the ddj sz or sx is quieter and when i increase the volume from the master i feel that the sound comes out distorted a bit
as i see the leds about to hit the red for both the channels and the master
any idea what to adjust
thx in advance
 
Posted Sat 05 Sep 15 @ 10:03 pm
If you the sound gets distorted you probably hit the limiter.
Try setting the zerodb value to -3.
But I'm not sure if it will help in your case.
 
Thx for the quick response PachN
but is this what will help me make the sound more clearer and loader
as there is an asio settings for the pioneer ddj sz that configure the db too
so it makes me a bit confused
-3db seems to be quieter
isn't there any other solution
 
I think the ddj-sz master volume control is controlled in hardware, so turning it up too much can cause clipping.
If you want the sound to be louder simply turn up the volume on your amplifier instead.
 
yeah your right
but when i connect cdjs and the ddj sz at the same time on the same amplifier i feel there is a deference in sound quality and loudness
that's why i asked if there is some thing in the ddj sz or the VDJ 8 that i miss to adjust
 
It's interesting what you say.
It is fairly easy for Pioneer to ensure the line level out of a controller is the same as their mixers + cdj's.
If you are correct then it is on purpose.

I always have my amplifiers on full volume so as to minimize noise, even though I use XLR cables.
My main master volume is provided by a Peavey PV10 mixer which resolves such issues, and provides quality microphone inputs, and control.

Last night I had a similar problem in reverse, my mixer + cdj's seemed to have a lower line output than my mc6000.
That was no trouble for my setup.
I do try to work around 0db, and have all my trims set around mid point, and no red lights anywhere.
 
A photo of my mixer sorting out my line level problems, and microphone control.

..and a few more.


Tayla suggested the star cloth to cover my wiring and it has worked very well !
It was cheap, and effective.

PS: The frame supporting the star cloth is just an Ebay £12 clothes rail !
 
@deejay_willy you need to keep in mind the cdjs are analog and can have higher output without clipping as much as +6bd in some cases where the digital cant go over 0db and not clip so there can be a big difference. best suggestion i have is lower the cdjs to match if you are using them together if not who cares if there is a difference.

@ron not sure how the photos helped lol
 
I know its off topic.
The £60 star cloth, and £12 clothes rail really helped.
I would put those pictures on television if I could.
Others might benefit.
Not everyone can afford to spend a small fortune on a specialized DJ both.

I think a picture of a main mixer working in conjunction with decks, or a controller offers a positive step forward.
It gives people something to think about.
It also solved my line level problems.

I do have problems staying on topic in a general discussion section of a forum.
Discussion should be encouraged, and off topic divergences tolerated if interesting, or informative.

"djs are analog and can have higher output without clipping as much as +6bd in some cases where the digital cant go over 0db and not clip so there can be a big difference"
Can anyone confirm that ?
That is an important piece of information of which I was unaware.
Fires up Google.
 
Both the cdj's and the ddj-sz are internally digital, and have analog outputs.
It is true that there are a couple of different standards regarding the reference output voltage of a line level. (See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level )

The ddj-sz might be at the consumer output level (probably chosen like that since the output will often be connected to consumer amplifiers), the cdj's might be at pro level (since they will almost always be connected to a mixer first)
With even the cheapest of DAC's able to reach very low noise levels this should only affect the volume though, quality-wise it should be the same, so to get the same 'quality' increasing the gain on the amplifier or mixer that you connect the ddj-sz to should be enough.

@ron: Please do try to stay on-topic, the discussion in this topic is about the different output levels between a ddj-sz and a cdj.
A starcloth is unlikely to offer any help with this problem. Pictures could be helpful, if they actually showed how the mixer connects a controller and cdj with gains matched.
Your pictures are unfortunately not very clear for this purpose.
 
bigron1 wrote :
The £60 star cloth, and £12 clothes rail really helped.

....but then you go and ruin the look by putting a cheap & nasty lighting goalpost in front of it. :-)

It's way too low, too narrow and shouldn't be any further forward than the starcloth. Your main speakers look as if they're at the right height. Your lighting should be up there with them - level with the top of the speakers (IMO).
 
Adion : I don't know where I picked up the idea that amplifiers should be set at full volume, and the mixer used to control volume.
The idea being to minimize line noise.
Is this an old wives tail?

Groovin: I'm well aware of that.
I would much rather my lights where behind me, and high.
It is impossible !!!!!!!
A cheap and nasty stand is your perception, but that is quite a good quality one which also includes pins to locate the center section, a nice touch.
You cannot view quality like your attempting to do, it's not a cheap Ebay stand like some I have.
In this world we have what's practical, and what you dream about.
 
bigron1 wrote :
Adion : I don't know where I picked up the idea that amplifiers should be set at full volume, and the mixer used to control volume.
The idea being to minimize line noise.
Is this an old wives tail?

I'm no expert in setting up PA systems, but I don't see much advantage in that.
A typical amplifier end stage has a fixed amplification. Volume controls are implemented as a reduction of the input before that.
The only advantages of having the amp at max volume that I see are:
-If you could bypass the volume control altogether, which usually you can't (and would have only very minor effect on the quality)
-Want to have the max volume available at your mixer (when you may not have easy access to the amplifier)
The disadvantages that I see:
-The signal level running from mixer to amplifier (potentially a relatively long distance) is lower, thus catching up more noise (of course this is limited by using balanced outputs/inputs or decent cable at least)
-The base level noise of the mixer output will be amplified more than necessary
-In case of a cable defect you can risk static and noise at a much higher level than the music you are playing
 
Thanks for the analysis Adion, it is the best I have seen so far.
I will try to stay on topic.
It seems I find that hard.

PS: Groovin : That is good advice which I will try to follow.
It's way too low, too narrow and shouldn't be any further forward than the starcloth. Your main speakers look as if they're at the right height. Your lighting should be up there with them - level with the top of the speakers (IMO).
Thank you.
 
so as i understood that there is a deference between cdj's and ddj's
and as understood that i cant adjust vdj 8 over the 0db
one more thing
i'll attach a pic which shows the ddj sz asio driver setup which i don't know on which should i set it on
 
Er -19db that's low.
See if any other settings are available in the drop down menu.
After a little thought It's not likely to be relavent unless your using time coded cd's or vinyl.
That means extra inputs from things like cdj's.

Adion's the man, he did say that there is a possible volume difference, though not quality.
I cannot see the DDJ-SZ having anything less than a pro set up.
As to the others ???

I don't think there is a 0db limit like you suspect.
 
You can indeed try to increase that setting and see if you can put it higher without getting distortion.
Since it doesn't have a unit, it's hard to say if -19dB is quiet. (-19dB apples? oranges? -19dBu, -19dBV, ... ?)
Possibly just -19dB compared to max output level of the usb, but if that max output level is not described anywhere it's still hard to say much useful about it
 
Ok, I will jump in.
First of all the setting on ASIO panel regards the RECORDING ability of DDJ-SZ.
It attenuates the "Record" output which is routed via USB back to your PC for recording your mixes.
Changing this value will not make your controller sound louder. It's also a good idea to keep it in a low setting so that in case you record something from your controller it won't distort. You can always boost a low level signal without distorting it after the recording is over. You cannot lower the recording signal and remove distortion though. If I remember correctly I have set mine to -8 or -9 db)

Second: DDJ-SZ features a master attenuator facility as all Pioneer mixers do. However it's not a pots on the back of the mixer as in DJM series, but it's built inside the device's firmware. You can select 3 possible values, 0db, -3db and -6db. The default value is 0db which means that unless you messed with this setting your unit is already set to reproduce "as loud as it can". In case you want to check it, the instructions on how to check and change this setting are described on page 24 of your unit's manual.

Third: When using different gear you should never assume that they will play out at the same level. That's why "Gain/Trim" pots exist on modern mixers anyway.
You should "level" all your connected gear prior to your gig and "mark" the position of Gain/Trim pots for each unit as a reference in case you need to mess with them later during your mix. If you are finding yourself having difficulties to level up the connected gear here are some good tips:
1) When connecting a "secondary mixer" on the main mixer, make sure that the secondary mixer has it's master volume set at 0db. This means that the master mixer will not attenuate or boost the signals from it's channel faders.
2) Do a quick playback of the same song on all channels you are going to use. Notice the VU-meters and start adjusting (leveling) from the unit/device/channel that has the LOWER output.
3) Try to keep your Gains and VU-Meters on logical values. When playing a typical song on modern mixers your channel VU-meters should show peaks at the first amber led, and rarely hit the second amber one. This setting produces lower output from the channel than you may like, but it gives you enough headroom to mix up to 4 channels without the danger to distort the main sound mixing engine of the mixer prior to master attenuator / master sound output. (If you ever wondered why while mixing in low master levels your mixer distorts, that's why)
4) If you need to do a precise leveling then you need to "produce" and playback some test tones from each unit. On the PA field it's common to level gear up by using test tones at 60Hz, 1KHz or 2KHz and 10KHz. Using test tones is quite simple: You basically play the exact same tone on all connected gear.
Important: For software you must ensure during this procedure that "auto-gain" is set to off.
Then you adjust gain pots until all vu's on your mixer(s) show the same value. With test tones you don't look to set the tone at 0db. You tweak it to the closest vu led it lights up after initial leveling. That's in order to ensure that once you have a full spectrum signal you won't overload the channel input.
5) It's always better to lower a loud source that trying to boost the more quiet signals.


Some general remarks:
The reason(s) why in PA field the amps are always set at max volume derives from the old analog days. Some of the reasons are now obsolete while some others still make perfect sense and that's why it's still how all PA systems are tweaked.
1) Typical mixers would have a rather big noise shelf, meaning that when the mixers would send out loud signals (e.g. master volume at 70%) they would also send loud noise. This loud noise/hiss could or could not be heard by the speakers, but it would still heat up the amp since it would process it normally.
This reason nowadays tend to become obsolete since all modern gear have much - much lower noise shelves than 10-15 years ago and far better SNR.
2) The amplifier's volume control is just an attenuator in the input stage of an amp. It lowers the signal that the amplifier receives on it's input connectors before guiding it on the rest of the circuit. When you are using a mixer, your mixer has also an attenuator to control the signal that leaves the mixer towards the amps (master volume) There's no practical gain of using two attenuators at the same time instead of one. They won't "hurt" either. However sound engineers tend to "kill" one of the two attenuators for better control of the signal.
While having two attenuators does NOT harm the signal, issues begin when the mixer has to boost the signal while your amp still attenuates it.
In other words: If your amp attenuates the signal it receives by -9db (almost halves the available volume) and your mixer boost it by +9db that's an issue... While the "simple maths" say that the result would be the same, in reality the signal leaving your mixer could distort and the distortion will pass to the mixer now matter how much you attenuate the input.
Once distortion reaches your amp it can only harm it. It can lead it to overheat (which will result lower performance) and it can also lead to speaker damage even if the speakers/output of the mixer does NOT clip.
That's one of the most important reasons why still sound engineers set the amps attenuators at their max level in simple sound setups.
3) One common misconception is that lowering the amps volume will protect the speakers from blowing out. Well in most cases it's the exact opposite that happens. What really blows the speakers (or the amplifiers output) out is the distortion of the signal. As described earlier, it's easier to distort the signal (by user error) when the amp is attenuated than when it's not.
4) Finally in modern systems when using speaker processors to manage amps, it's the processors that handle all the boost or attenuation of the signals for each amplifier. For a speaker processor to work properly the amps must always have the same reference. It's easier for the sound engineers to set all the amplifiers up to their "max volume" (no attenuation) and set up everything on the processor than having to mark and remember where the attenuators of each amp need to be. Also, this technique helps them to have backup/spare amps ready to operate in real time since they don't need to tweak settings, but instead they only have to switch connections.

These are the main reasons why in PA field amps are always set at "their max volume"

Sorry for the long post.
I hope someone finds all this info useful (mostly mobile dj's which set-up their own sound system)
 
@ Phantom +1
very useful, thankyou.
ray
 
@ Phantom +1

Adion has been +1 in many posts as well !
 
95%