jamesdolecek
Trance is my desired genre, so got a few questions....do you mix before the breakdown? Do you avoid the breakdowns to keep the crowd hopp'in? What are cue points usually set at? I'm assuming the first one is set where you want to start mixing, right? what do you use the other cue points for? or do you just generally mix at the outro...do you skip the breakdown all together? Also how important is mixing in key?
Posted Sun 20 Oct 13 @ 12:23 am
groovindj
The thing is..........there isn't just one way of doing things.
Different DJs have different techniques/methods. There are no rules set down by the Trance Police that say you have to do this or that.
As long as you're playing what the crowd wants to hear, you're doing fine.
Mixing in key only becomes important when you're blending one musical element with another (with both playing together).
Different DJs have different techniques/methods. There are no rules set down by the Trance Police that say you have to do this or that.
As long as you're playing what the crowd wants to hear, you're doing fine.
Mixing in key only becomes important when you're blending one musical element with another (with both playing together).
Posted Sun 20 Oct 13 @ 6:14 am
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
while there is no 'trance police' there certainly is a trance culture and trance 'way' of mixing...
Just like hiphop djs tend to scratch, cut and slam fader over on a beat, doing those same things for trance, would be a complete disaster.
And just as hiphop mixing has its style, so does trance mixing..
best way to learn the trance mixing 'style' and feel, would be to listen to other good djs, to get the feel into your brain and blood.
its a bit like if you wanted to learn playing heavy metal, you could get a chords book, but listening to some metal guitarist would be way to get the feel, and 'style' of it... no chords book can tell you how hard they hit the strings, how much filter and guitar effects they use etc..
Same with trance - listen to sets by the top trance djs, to get the feel of how trance transitions are, the use of filter, and EQ's, how often breakdowns/bridges are 'avoided' by bringing in new song, and how often they are used as a dramatic breakdown..
And what songs and energy it is early set and later set, because at a gig you cant mix epic massive bangers all night... You start with melodic progressive vocal trance, and end with the massive bangers late nite when floor is packed,... or if its a podcast/recording, it can be wise to start slow to, and either go through with it all the way, or build up...
Trance tend to go for long melodic transitions, harmonic mixing is absolutely central as there are tons of layers of instruments in trance, mixing by 32 beat structure is crucial as you are telling a 'long story' and need to keep the structure of the 2 songs mixed, in same phases ...
Mixing trance well is not easy, takes a lot of practice and passion, mixing trance bad, is very easy (usually just takes a clueless non-trance dj giving it a go. )
Learn how songs are build around blocks of 32 beats (intro, 32 beats, 1st verse 2x32 beats, chorus 32 beats etc) and make sure you mix song A with song B in same structure (32 beat marker over 32 beat marker), play with EQ and filters to make the harmonic and melodic transition from song to song as seamless and harmonic as possible ...
Knowing your songs in and out by heart is also an immense advantage with trance, that way you will eventually 'know' what songs to mix together, what songs fit what songs, what to use for dramatic build ups, what to use for dreamy calm melodic parts etc.
And practice makes champ, record your mixes, listen to them, learn from 'mistakes' and practice again ;)
Just like hiphop djs tend to scratch, cut and slam fader over on a beat, doing those same things for trance, would be a complete disaster.
And just as hiphop mixing has its style, so does trance mixing..
best way to learn the trance mixing 'style' and feel, would be to listen to other good djs, to get the feel into your brain and blood.
its a bit like if you wanted to learn playing heavy metal, you could get a chords book, but listening to some metal guitarist would be way to get the feel, and 'style' of it... no chords book can tell you how hard they hit the strings, how much filter and guitar effects they use etc..
Same with trance - listen to sets by the top trance djs, to get the feel of how trance transitions are, the use of filter, and EQ's, how often breakdowns/bridges are 'avoided' by bringing in new song, and how often they are used as a dramatic breakdown..
And what songs and energy it is early set and later set, because at a gig you cant mix epic massive bangers all night... You start with melodic progressive vocal trance, and end with the massive bangers late nite when floor is packed,... or if its a podcast/recording, it can be wise to start slow to, and either go through with it all the way, or build up...
Trance tend to go for long melodic transitions, harmonic mixing is absolutely central as there are tons of layers of instruments in trance, mixing by 32 beat structure is crucial as you are telling a 'long story' and need to keep the structure of the 2 songs mixed, in same phases ...
Mixing trance well is not easy, takes a lot of practice and passion, mixing trance bad, is very easy (usually just takes a clueless non-trance dj giving it a go. )
Learn how songs are build around blocks of 32 beats (intro, 32 beats, 1st verse 2x32 beats, chorus 32 beats etc) and make sure you mix song A with song B in same structure (32 beat marker over 32 beat marker), play with EQ and filters to make the harmonic and melodic transition from song to song as seamless and harmonic as possible ...
Knowing your songs in and out by heart is also an immense advantage with trance, that way you will eventually 'know' what songs to mix together, what songs fit what songs, what to use for dramatic build ups, what to use for dreamy calm melodic parts etc.
And practice makes champ, record your mixes, listen to them, learn from 'mistakes' and practice again ;)
Posted Sun 20 Oct 13 @ 6:58 am
groovindj
I guess by your response that you're into trance and play it often....
My comment was made from the POV of a "general" DJ who plays anything and everything (not necessarily in one night!).
I've played trance before, in my own way, and no-one's ever come up to me and complained that I'm not mixing it properly. :-)
Maybe it's because I'm experienced and just naturally switch styles when mixing, based on what I'm hearing. I can't put my finger on it because it's just done on auto-pilot, like driving a car or riding a bike.
It all sounds very regimented though, to say it has to be done this way or that way. In that case, I would expect every trance DJ and mix to sound the same - that would be very boring!
My comment was made from the POV of a "general" DJ who plays anything and everything (not necessarily in one night!).
I've played trance before, in my own way, and no-one's ever come up to me and complained that I'm not mixing it properly. :-)
Maybe it's because I'm experienced and just naturally switch styles when mixing, based on what I'm hearing. I can't put my finger on it because it's just done on auto-pilot, like driving a car or riding a bike.
It all sounds very regimented though, to say it has to be done this way or that way. In that case, I would expect every trance DJ and mix to sound the same - that would be very boring!
Posted Sun 20 Oct 13 @ 7:34 am
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
thats like saying every hiphop djs sound the same just because its has its mixing style ... of course not true ;)
there is tons of room for variations, and ways within the 'culture' of mixing a certain genre ;)
And yes, you're right.. with experience its a bit like riding a bike.. you know when to ride slowly, when to put the pedals to the floor to climb up etc.. An experienced dj with multi genre input, would probably mix trance well without thinking about why ... ;)
But there is definitively different cultures and styles of mixing ... a scratch and cut dj doing a trance set like he does hiphop would be an utter failure ;)
Posted Sun 20 Oct 13 @ 8:45 am
groovindj
dj-in-norway wrote :
doing a trance set like he does hiphop would be an utter failure
doing a trance set like he does hiphop would be an utter failure
Well that's an extreme example, and I'm not saying (or even suggesting) that anyone should scratch when playing trance.
What I mean is that to we shouldn't be telling new DJs "you have to do it like this" because that implies an "or else" - that somehow if he doesn't use filters or only mix every 32 bars, it's wrong.
James, remember in Pirates Of The Caribbean that the Pirates Code was "more like guidelines than actual rules"? Same with DJing.
Yes there are different DJing styles, but you don't have to follow any style strictly, and you don't have to only do things one way.
Posted Sun 20 Oct 13 @ 9:01 am
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
Yeah agree .. but thats what he got... guidance ;) he was asking for tips, and telling someone 'how to mix' (well) - is far from a rigid system where its one particular way only, and everything else is wrong ;) should definitively 'tell' djs how to mix .. as in guide them to what sounds good , and what to aim for, whats good and whats bad ;)
and not mixing by the 32 beats (with dance/house/trance) is usually very wrong ... ;)
Thats like reading a book, and not picking up on same page when you continue to read later on.. you have to mix in correct timing and structure, else it (can) sounds weird, off phase and off structure ;) Sure you can get by without, but to a skilled ear, dj or producer or even a music lover it will sound 'off' .. .probably to most people it will sound 'off', cause it would be 'off' the structure of music.
But sure ... if the aim is just to beatmix, thats fine .. I highly recommend going for more than that though ;) That would be my pirate of Caribbean 'guidance' for sure ;) hehe
And i dont think its anything wrong at all by giving 'how to', tips to mix best possible ;) Its just that.. guidance
and not mixing by the 32 beats (with dance/house/trance) is usually very wrong ... ;)
Thats like reading a book, and not picking up on same page when you continue to read later on.. you have to mix in correct timing and structure, else it (can) sounds weird, off phase and off structure ;) Sure you can get by without, but to a skilled ear, dj or producer or even a music lover it will sound 'off' .. .probably to most people it will sound 'off', cause it would be 'off' the structure of music.
But sure ... if the aim is just to beatmix, thats fine .. I highly recommend going for more than that though ;) That would be my pirate of Caribbean 'guidance' for sure ;) hehe
And i dont think its anything wrong at all by giving 'how to', tips to mix best possible ;) Its just that.. guidance
Posted Sun 20 Oct 13 @ 10:00 am
groovindj
dj-in-norway wrote :
not mixing by the 32 beats (with dance/house/trance) is usually very wrong ... ;)
not mixing by the 32 beats (with dance/house/trance) is usually very wrong ... ;)
When you say 32 beats, do you mean 8 bars? It's not as simple as saying "always mix every 8 bars" because not all tracks are structured like that. In just the same way as tracks don't always have the same tempo or key all the way through, not every track is made in chunks of 8 bars. Especially if it's been edited or remixed.
What DJs need to do (instead of counting bars) is to listen to the music. Does the track progress in groups of 8 bars? Maybe it's 4 bars, maybe it's 16 bars. Could even be 12 bars!
Posted Sun 20 Oct 13 @ 10:08 am
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
Music is patterns, heck it even math .. .its what makes it rhythmical - its the nature of music...
rhythm means ' with fixed order or procedure or principle' by definition .. and thats how music is ..
its not just random 8 beats or 12 beats, or you can't make it anyway you want.. . that would sound arrhythmical, sound irregular and not 'music' to the human ear (usually).
There are of course different genres and types of music (that all are rhythmical, have their own structure and patterns), but for sake of simplify, we usually talk about a 4 by 4 beat pattern, with that beat signature. Its how 'all' western pop/rock/dance music is.
And every verse is 'always' 32 beats x2 or x1, and every chorus is 'always' 32 beats, etc etc.
(unless for creative purposes made off structure to surprise, build up - but rare)
Yes sometimes the 32 beat intro is dropped , or cut short (Edited) - to make a radio friendly Radio Edit version.
But these are often refereed to as 'not dj friendly' or some other lable, cause they dont have full pattern/structure.
So a bar in 4/4 signature is all the 4 beats that 'repeat' (the minimum building block so to speak).
Where first beat of each bar is called the 'downbeat' - this is the VERY minimum to know when beatmixing.
Not mixing downbeat over downbeat, at song A and B, is a disaster.
And 8 bars would be 32 beats yes, or correctly termed, its a phrase .
Just like beats are grouped into bars, the bars themselves are grouped into phrases.
Every 1st beat of a phrase (32 beat/8 bars), is called the 'significant downbeat'.
The significant downbeat is where most always a (skilled) DJ would aim to mix at, cause it just sounds awesome..
Its in structure, its in correct timing, and sounds like you are 'reading a story - and picking up at the right place'.
Not doing so, will sound 'off phrase' (timing off), while not as bad as off beat, still quite noticeable.
At every 'significant downbeat' something 'new' happens in the song! The chorus starts, the vocal starts, the breakdown starts, the verse starts.. always on the 'significant downbeat'. And the idea is that one of the 'new' will be song B coming in, at exactly this sweet spot. That makes your mix totally awesome sounding (of course given other params are in place such as harmonics, bpm, energy and sound likeness etc)
And yes, all music is structured that way (our western music). Its what rhythm is, what music is.. .its just that rhythmical patterns.
Its not random, its not arbitrary ... its a pattern thats very defined.
(But sure - you can find the odd edit - usually for radio play - or the off structure for purpose of being off structure as a 'surprising' element in some songs - but thats rare)
rhythm means ' with fixed order or procedure or principle' by definition .. and thats how music is ..
its not just random 8 beats or 12 beats, or you can't make it anyway you want.. . that would sound arrhythmical, sound irregular and not 'music' to the human ear (usually).
There are of course different genres and types of music (that all are rhythmical, have their own structure and patterns), but for sake of simplify, we usually talk about a 4 by 4 beat pattern, with that beat signature. Its how 'all' western pop/rock/dance music is.
And every verse is 'always' 32 beats x2 or x1, and every chorus is 'always' 32 beats, etc etc.
(unless for creative purposes made off structure to surprise, build up - but rare)
Yes sometimes the 32 beat intro is dropped , or cut short (Edited) - to make a radio friendly Radio Edit version.
But these are often refereed to as 'not dj friendly' or some other lable, cause they dont have full pattern/structure.
So a bar in 4/4 signature is all the 4 beats that 'repeat' (the minimum building block so to speak).
Where first beat of each bar is called the 'downbeat' - this is the VERY minimum to know when beatmixing.
Not mixing downbeat over downbeat, at song A and B, is a disaster.
And 8 bars would be 32 beats yes, or correctly termed, its a phrase .
Just like beats are grouped into bars, the bars themselves are grouped into phrases.
Every 1st beat of a phrase (32 beat/8 bars), is called the 'significant downbeat'.
The significant downbeat is where most always a (skilled) DJ would aim to mix at, cause it just sounds awesome..
Its in structure, its in correct timing, and sounds like you are 'reading a story - and picking up at the right place'.
Not doing so, will sound 'off phrase' (timing off), while not as bad as off beat, still quite noticeable.
At every 'significant downbeat' something 'new' happens in the song! The chorus starts, the vocal starts, the breakdown starts, the verse starts.. always on the 'significant downbeat'. And the idea is that one of the 'new' will be song B coming in, at exactly this sweet spot. That makes your mix totally awesome sounding (of course given other params are in place such as harmonics, bpm, energy and sound likeness etc)
And yes, all music is structured that way (our western music). Its what rhythm is, what music is.. .its just that rhythmical patterns.
Its not random, its not arbitrary ... its a pattern thats very defined.
(But sure - you can find the odd edit - usually for radio play - or the off structure for purpose of being off structure as a 'surprising' element in some songs - but thats rare)
Posted Sun 20 Oct 13 @ 10:31 am
jboerlage
dj-in-norway wrote :
Music is patterns, heck it even math .. .its what makes it rhythmical - its the nature of music...
rhythm means ' with fixed order or procedure or principle' by definition .. and thats how music is ..
its not just random 8 beats or 12 beats, or you can't make it anyway you want.. . that would sound arrhythmical, sound irregular and not 'music' to the human ear (usually).
rhythm means ' with fixed order or procedure or principle' by definition .. and thats how music is ..
its not just random 8 beats or 12 beats, or you can't make it anyway you want.. . that would sound arrhythmical, sound irregular and not 'music' to the human ear (usually).
Entirely agree on the above!
You can also see this with the instruments dance music started on. The drum machines, step sequencers and trackers were build with phrase sizes of either 32 or 64 beats. Taking other sizes will in generally sound very unexpected. Even though nowadays some producers do like to mess with us, surprising us by taking a (half) beat out after a break down or indeed not following (natural) protocol.
But regardless of the beat count (sure no one actually counts to 32 while mixing) you can HEAR and predict the coming of the significant downbeat and as a modern addition SEE it in the waveform display.
Posted Sun 20 Oct 13 @ 3:19 pm
jboerlage
jamesdolecek wrote :
Trance is my desired genre, so got a few questions....do you mix before the breakdown? Do you avoid the breakdowns to keep the crowd hopp'in? What are cue points usually set at? I'm assuming the first one is set where you want to start mixing, right? what do you use the other cue points for? or do you just generally mix at the outro...do you skip the breakdown all together? Also how important is mixing in key?
Trance is my desired genre, so got a few questions....do you mix before the breakdown? Do you avoid the breakdowns to keep the crowd hopp'in? What are cue points usually set at? I'm assuming the first one is set where you want to start mixing, right? what do you use the other cue points for? or do you just generally mix at the outro...do you skip the breakdown all together? Also how important is mixing in key?
Trance is a very big genre with allot of substyles. Each of them will have a different way of mixing. Goto mixcloud.com and search for mixes done in the various subgenres to get a feeling of the thing.
In general Trance is a 'story telling genre' you keep the tracks long. Its part of the whole experience. With more heavy hard trance you might skip a breakdown here and there to keep the energy going, but with true progressive trance the breakdowns are just as important as the rest of the track.
Because of the musical complexity you should always be mixing in key and be very mindful on the energy as well. Despite the progressive nature you must avoid mixing tracks with too much energy difference, unless you specifically want to.
I suggest you listen to others and plan your mixes ahead. Think of what you want to 'tell' in your story. Think of the energy evolution, will you be raising the tempo gradually, will there be a heads and tails?
Good luck and let us listen!
Posted Sun 20 Oct 13 @ 3:30 pm
Tear Em 'Up
jboerlage wrote :
I suggest you listen to others and plan your mixes ahead. Think of what you want to 'tell' in your story.
This is how I build my mixes and, I'm not a trance DJ. There are so many different ways to accomplish creating a mix. That is why I love mixing so much. Plenty of room for originality. Experiment, find yourself. Don't be afraid to think out of the box.....
Posted Sun 20 Oct 13 @ 3:36 pm
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
Sure there are plenty of room for originality ... ;)
But within a grid or logic, within the scope of music and its structure .. Originality stops being a good thing when you are arrhythmic.
Just as there is plenty of room for slamming the heavy metal guitar at a track, if you dont follow the rhythm and pattern, it sounds 'off', just doesn't feel right, and there is no 'magic' ...
And reason I always highlight the phrase / 32 beat block logic, is that this is the one single part djs just dont get, and dont excel to, or just dont bother to learn. And thats fine - really it is. But you're then at the average to good dj.
Beatmixing 'anyone' can learn rather quickly, but music 'theory' and understanding music patterns, and getting timing right, is something that unfortunately so many djs dont get right, or dont bother to learn.. . and their mixing end up sounding 'off phrase' (off timing) - and the mix ends up rather random... no 'story telling', no good flow , as the poster above mentioned.
But dont get me wrong, you can get by just beatmixing too.. but wish more djs would aspire beyond that, and get things right ;)
Not just be average to good , but be awesome ;)
But within a grid or logic, within the scope of music and its structure .. Originality stops being a good thing when you are arrhythmic.
Just as there is plenty of room for slamming the heavy metal guitar at a track, if you dont follow the rhythm and pattern, it sounds 'off', just doesn't feel right, and there is no 'magic' ...
And reason I always highlight the phrase / 32 beat block logic, is that this is the one single part djs just dont get, and dont excel to, or just dont bother to learn. And thats fine - really it is. But you're then at the average to good dj.
Beatmixing 'anyone' can learn rather quickly, but music 'theory' and understanding music patterns, and getting timing right, is something that unfortunately so many djs dont get right, or dont bother to learn.. . and their mixing end up sounding 'off phrase' (off timing) - and the mix ends up rather random... no 'story telling', no good flow , as the poster above mentioned.
But dont get me wrong, you can get by just beatmixing too.. but wish more djs would aspire beyond that, and get things right ;)
Not just be average to good , but be awesome ;)
Posted Mon 21 Oct 13 @ 7:46 am
jboerlage
dj-in-norway wrote :
Beatmixing 'anyone' can learn rather quickly, but music 'theory' and understanding music patterns, and getting timing right, is something that unfortunately so many djs dont get right, or dont bother to learn.. .
Beatmixing 'anyone' can learn rather quickly, but music 'theory' and understanding music patterns, and getting timing right, is something that unfortunately so many djs dont get right, or dont bother to learn.. .
Its one of those things people with a musical mind will do naturally and others will be forever incapable of learning. Doesn't mean they are bad DJ's perse since there is much more to DJ-ing than mixing, selection being the most important if you ask me.
But when your focus is really on a specific 'EDM' genre than you will only stand out if your mixing is perfect and original and you have some 'producer aspirations'. Unless you are Paris Hilton of course, than your cheesy diamond smile is enough.
Posted Mon 21 Oct 13 @ 8:52 am
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
jboerlage wrote :
Unless you are Paris Hilton of course, than your cheesy diamond smile is enough.
Unless you are Paris Hilton of course, than your cheesy diamond smile is enough.
lol .. yeah.. we cant all be like that hehe
Posted Mon 21 Oct 13 @ 9:42 am
jboerlage
Soo.. slightly off topic, but how about we share some of our 'more creative projects'? Kinda curious for each musical mix adventures.
Lets hit it off with a few with some, for the users here, not so common genres I guess..
Sunday Night Mixes, 2012: Part 34 - Trance Circadian http://i.mixcloud.com/CBY0B7
Since this was a trance topic, here's a trance mix. Its PsyTrance fully done with tracks found on http://www.ektoplazm.com/. PsyTrance is a very distinctive genre and consists out of multiple sub genres that actually refer to parts of the day. Hence the title Trance Circadian.
Sunday Night Mixes, 2012: Part 37 - Electro Méxicana http://i.mixcloud.com/CBrkil
All Mexican made or inspired electro trying to catch the feeling of the real Mexico.
Sunday Night Mixes, 2013: Part 39 - Haunted Voices http://i.mixcloud.com/CCDcKx
Lots of research in this one as well. Seeking out the best 70ties style horror tracks and making it into one eerie story telling mix.
Enjoy, its different. Curious for other projects!
Lets hit it off with a few with some, for the users here, not so common genres I guess..
Sunday Night Mixes, 2012: Part 34 - Trance Circadian http://i.mixcloud.com/CBY0B7
Since this was a trance topic, here's a trance mix. Its PsyTrance fully done with tracks found on http://www.ektoplazm.com/. PsyTrance is a very distinctive genre and consists out of multiple sub genres that actually refer to parts of the day. Hence the title Trance Circadian.
Sunday Night Mixes, 2012: Part 37 - Electro Méxicana http://i.mixcloud.com/CBrkil
All Mexican made or inspired electro trying to catch the feeling of the real Mexico.
Sunday Night Mixes, 2013: Part 39 - Haunted Voices http://i.mixcloud.com/CCDcKx
Lots of research in this one as well. Seeking out the best 70ties style horror tracks and making it into one eerie story telling mix.
Enjoy, its different. Curious for other projects!
Posted Mon 21 Oct 13 @ 10:04 am
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
i like the concept .. themed mixes, works well for podcasts, mixsets, theme nights... cleverly done and good ;)
Posted Mon 21 Oct 13 @ 10:11 am
jboerlage
dj-in-norway wrote :
i like the concept .. themed mixes, works well for podcasts, mixsets, theme nights... cleverly done and good ;)
i like the concept .. themed mixes, works well for podcasts, mixsets, theme nights... cleverly done and good ;)
Though very time consuming its great fun to do, each theme you'll learn a new genre or mixing style. After doing these podcasts for a couple of years each mix really becomes a project that can require weeks of research and preparation. You just want to keep raising the bar.
Same goes for my collaboration series, for the last one ( http://i.mixcloud.com/CD04Bw ) I perse wanted to have guest DJ's from the birthplaces of Techno and produce a couple of tracks myself.. well that one took a couple of months from idea to release :P
Music is fun!
Posted Mon 21 Oct 13 @ 11:05 am
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
yeah, its nice to break out of the genre box, and try new things.. a good way to learn more too ..
You only 'air' these at mixcloud? could come play at vdj radio should you want.. .
Posted Mon 21 Oct 13 @ 12:03 pm
jboerlage
dj-in-norway wrote :
You only 'air' these at mixcloud? could come play at vdj radio should you want.. .
You only 'air' these at mixcloud? could come play at vdj radio should you want.. .
Yeah Mixcloud is my fav place to air. And thanks for the invite. I can't commit myself to anything frequent, but would be fun to fill an hour once in a while if that is an option. Drop me a message if that works!
Posted Mon 21 Oct 13 @ 12:17 pm