Diamond G
Ok now that I have your attention, I don’t think the answer to the ABSOLUTE BEST video format will ever be “completely” answered. However I think I may have a solution to get as close as we can to answering the question (since it has and continues to be a hot topic).
I looked on the forum but didn’t find anyone who has suggested this.
The IDEA:
1. Methodically select a good cross section of DJ’s using ea of the most popular programs and formats for use with VDJ i.e. MPEG, AVI, etc
(Selection should be done by someone very knowledgeable or a committee from this formum – Any volunteers?)
2. Agree on a particular video most of us have or can get on DVD world-wide.
3. Rip the original DVD using the program, specs, and format you have found gives you the best performance. i.e. Loading speed, clarity, etc
4. Each participating DJ can Upload their ripped version of the video to RapidShare (or alike) and post their SPECS and links here.
5. We can then download ea format of the same video and compare.
I think this would allow ea DJ to compare the video in different formats and different ripping programs without having to invest more time/money than what we’ve already invested in the particular format we’ve been respectively using.
The price for a subscription to a sharing site like Rapidshare beats spending a bunch of time and money on many programs to find the best format, etc
See what you all think.
MY SPECS ARE:
Program: ImToo DVD ripper Platinum 4
Format: MPEG2
Video Size: 480x480
Bit Rate: 2376
Frame Rate: 29.97
Audio: 192
Sample Rate: 48000
Any suggestions on a particular DVD we can use for this idea?
I looked on the forum but didn’t find anyone who has suggested this.
The IDEA:
1. Methodically select a good cross section of DJ’s using ea of the most popular programs and formats for use with VDJ i.e. MPEG, AVI, etc
(Selection should be done by someone very knowledgeable or a committee from this formum – Any volunteers?)
2. Agree on a particular video most of us have or can get on DVD world-wide.
3. Rip the original DVD using the program, specs, and format you have found gives you the best performance. i.e. Loading speed, clarity, etc
4. Each participating DJ can Upload their ripped version of the video to RapidShare (or alike) and post their SPECS and links here.
5. We can then download ea format of the same video and compare.
I think this would allow ea DJ to compare the video in different formats and different ripping programs without having to invest more time/money than what we’ve already invested in the particular format we’ve been respectively using.
The price for a subscription to a sharing site like Rapidshare beats spending a bunch of time and money on many programs to find the best format, etc
See what you all think.
MY SPECS ARE:
Program: ImToo DVD ripper Platinum 4
Format: MPEG2
Video Size: 480x480
Bit Rate: 2376
Frame Rate: 29.97
Audio: 192
Sample Rate: 48000
Any suggestions on a particular DVD we can use for this idea?
Posted Wed 19 Dec 07 @ 8:08 pm
Steve Lynch
Everyone keeps pushing this issue....
there is nothing as good as the native format. close, but not AS GOOD. why do people keep beating a dead horse? If you can afford enough video to be that worried about space, why not just get a bigger drive?
why not just keep .vob? as hard drive prices plummet (1 tb was $229.00 at office max this weekend) it seems counter productive to put them in any format other than their native format. As screens get cheaper, projectors get bigger and better, hi-def takes over, and clubs get more sophisticated, why degrade the quality of the video? anything you do to the video is going to take away from quality.. there is no such thing as lossless compression. It's a nice term, but it's misleading.
The only reason I'd ever reduce my collection would be to send lower quality copies out with one of my mobile guys after encrypting them. Encrypting 400 mb would definitely be better than 1.5 tb.
what do you gain by changing format? you potentially lose compatibility with other software (not that you'd ever want to change, but what if something ever happened and you did?) you save space at the cost of quality (many Older videos are crappy quality to begin with) and you set yourself up to have to do it all again in a couple years.
just my 2cents
there is nothing as good as the native format. close, but not AS GOOD. why do people keep beating a dead horse? If you can afford enough video to be that worried about space, why not just get a bigger drive?
why not just keep .vob? as hard drive prices plummet (1 tb was $229.00 at office max this weekend) it seems counter productive to put them in any format other than their native format. As screens get cheaper, projectors get bigger and better, hi-def takes over, and clubs get more sophisticated, why degrade the quality of the video? anything you do to the video is going to take away from quality.. there is no such thing as lossless compression. It's a nice term, but it's misleading.
The only reason I'd ever reduce my collection would be to send lower quality copies out with one of my mobile guys after encrypting them. Encrypting 400 mb would definitely be better than 1.5 tb.
what do you gain by changing format? you potentially lose compatibility with other software (not that you'd ever want to change, but what if something ever happened and you did?) you save space at the cost of quality (many Older videos are crappy quality to begin with) and you set yourself up to have to do it all again in a couple years.
just my 2cents
Posted Wed 19 Dec 07 @ 9:20 pm
DJ Cyder
Steve
no one is disputing the fact that the dvd mpeg-2 standard is the highest quality video (that we can get now through legal channels) Deviating from this format is no doubt going to give you lesser quality. Consider this DVD-Video discs use either 4:3 or anamorphic 16:9 aspect ratio MPEG-2 video, at a resolution of 720×480 (NTSC) or 720×576 (PAL) at 29.97 or 25 FPS. Audio is stored using the Dolby Digital (AC-3) or Digital Theater System (DTS) formats, ranging from 16-bits/48kHz to 24-bits/96kHz format with monaural to 7.1 channel "Surround Sound" presentation, and/or MPEG-1 Layer 2. The container for mpg-2, vob is quite dated. There is no way to tag add album art or give comments, bpm etc.
Now consider this...
H.264/AVC project was to create a standard capable of providing good video quality at substantially lower bit rates than previous standards half or less the bit rate of MPEG-2, H.263, or MPEG-4.
and
Both of the major candidate next-generation optical video disc rival formats deployed in 2006 include the H.264/AVC High Profile as a mandatory player feature—specifically:
* The HD DVD format of the DVD Forum
* The Blu-ray Disc format of the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA)
MPEG-4 captures many of the features that made MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 great, but with some new features such as VRML support for 3D rendering, object-oriented composite files (including audio, video and VRML objects), support for external DRM and other types of interactivity. AAC (Advanced Audio Codec) was standardized as an adjunct to MPEG-2 (as Part 7) before MPEG-4 was issued.
So you see mpeg-2 is going the way of mpeg-1 and its happening faster then you think. Mp4 is being called the mp3 of video. The possibiltys with it are endless hell mpeg-4 supports a resolution up to 4096x2304@26.7 fps. Thats pretty impressive if you ask me. Also to note you don't have to compress the video at all you can leave it as is (passthru) and compress the audio portion saving a considerable amount of space compared to the pcm file you are stuck with in mpeg-2 Food for thought for sure.
no one is disputing the fact that the dvd mpeg-2 standard is the highest quality video (that we can get now through legal channels) Deviating from this format is no doubt going to give you lesser quality. Consider this DVD-Video discs use either 4:3 or anamorphic 16:9 aspect ratio MPEG-2 video, at a resolution of 720×480 (NTSC) or 720×576 (PAL) at 29.97 or 25 FPS. Audio is stored using the Dolby Digital (AC-3) or Digital Theater System (DTS) formats, ranging from 16-bits/48kHz to 24-bits/96kHz format with monaural to 7.1 channel "Surround Sound" presentation, and/or MPEG-1 Layer 2. The container for mpg-2, vob is quite dated. There is no way to tag add album art or give comments, bpm etc.
Now consider this...
H.264/AVC project was to create a standard capable of providing good video quality at substantially lower bit rates than previous standards half or less the bit rate of MPEG-2, H.263, or MPEG-4.
and
Both of the major candidate next-generation optical video disc rival formats deployed in 2006 include the H.264/AVC High Profile as a mandatory player feature—specifically:
* The HD DVD format of the DVD Forum
* The Blu-ray Disc format of the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA)
MPEG-4 captures many of the features that made MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 great, but with some new features such as VRML support for 3D rendering, object-oriented composite files (including audio, video and VRML objects), support for external DRM and other types of interactivity. AAC (Advanced Audio Codec) was standardized as an adjunct to MPEG-2 (as Part 7) before MPEG-4 was issued.
So you see mpeg-2 is going the way of mpeg-1 and its happening faster then you think. Mp4 is being called the mp3 of video. The possibiltys with it are endless hell mpeg-4 supports a resolution up to 4096x2304@26.7 fps. Thats pretty impressive if you ask me. Also to note you don't have to compress the video at all you can leave it as is (passthru) and compress the audio portion saving a considerable amount of space compared to the pcm file you are stuck with in mpeg-2 Food for thought for sure.
Posted Wed 19 Dec 07 @ 10:03 pm
low-fat-al
So what would be the ideal MPEG-4 setting then to re-encode an entire library for quality and space saving reasons?
what software would be recommended to do all the encoding?
(I use TMGEnc 4.0 Xpress)
what software would be recommended to do all the encoding?
(I use TMGEnc 4.0 Xpress)
Posted Thu 20 Dec 07 @ 5:20 am
mp3jrick
I may be sort of old school on this...
But, having re ripped my library once already, I hesitate to jump at anything that isn't considered an industry standard.
In the meanwhile, good quality drives are cheap and the ripping is quick with no artifacts associated with compression.
r
But, having re ripped my library once already, I hesitate to jump at anything that isn't considered an industry standard.
In the meanwhile, good quality drives are cheap and the ripping is quick with no artifacts associated with compression.
r
Posted Thu 20 Dec 07 @ 5:52 am
DJ Cyder
Rick,
What more can i say mpeg-4 is becoming the standard for broadcast, internet streaming, blue ray and hd dvd is there more I have to say to prove this truly is the next generation for mpeg. I sent you an example file to have a look at.
al,
almost every software out there for converting is based on ffmpeg. I use a program called visual hub, but its not on the pc its mac only sony vegas will also render to mp4.
I use these settings
ffmpeg -refs 5 -mbd 2 -me full -subq 6 -me_range 21 -me_threshold 6 -i_qfactor 0.71428572
profile - high
h.264
720x480
bitrate 2500
audio aac 160
gives me good looking files for about 60-100 meg each.
What more can i say mpeg-4 is becoming the standard for broadcast, internet streaming, blue ray and hd dvd is there more I have to say to prove this truly is the next generation for mpeg. I sent you an example file to have a look at.
al,
almost every software out there for converting is based on ffmpeg. I use a program called visual hub, but its not on the pc its mac only sony vegas will also render to mp4.
I use these settings
ffmpeg -refs 5 -mbd 2 -me full -subq 6 -me_range 21 -me_threshold 6 -i_qfactor 0.71428572
profile - high
h.264
720x480
bitrate 2500
audio aac 160
gives me good looking files for about 60-100 meg each.
Posted Thu 20 Dec 07 @ 7:15 am
Diamond G
You guys make great points and I feel perhaps something should be added to the SPECs in order to be more specific of why your SPECs may work great for you.
And it should be VIDEO MIXING STYLE.
If your mixing style is play videos one after the other (sort of a video juke box [not trying to offend any one] ) the size is probably not important. You have about 3 min for your video to load and your crowd is likely to be mostly sitting and enjoying the video (good video quality) vs. mostly dancing.
Other DJ’s mixing style is heavy scratching (e.g. Hip Hop Videos, and some Dance Videos) which in my opinion require a trade-off between video quality and quick loading / decreased stuttering, etc.
My personal Mixing style (and what the crowd at the club I play at expect) is some looping and quick mixing playing only 1 minute to 2 minutes of each video. This leaves you limited time to beat-match, select your next video, load it (quickly), sample it, re-select if needed, and beat-match again. This again and in my opinion requires the trade-off I described. Since in this scenario you have the majority of the crowd dancing and only glancing at the video, super high quality video may not be the absolute answer.
As you can see, this is not a question of how cheap Hard Drives have become. Many DJs may not have access to a Super fast computer with a super fast Video card with a super fast “whatever”.
What I feel this is about is: Decreasing the propensity of ending up embarrassed because VDJ experienced a minor or major hiccup.
Food for thought.
And it should be VIDEO MIXING STYLE.
If your mixing style is play videos one after the other (sort of a video juke box [not trying to offend any one] ) the size is probably not important. You have about 3 min for your video to load and your crowd is likely to be mostly sitting and enjoying the video (good video quality) vs. mostly dancing.
Other DJ’s mixing style is heavy scratching (e.g. Hip Hop Videos, and some Dance Videos) which in my opinion require a trade-off between video quality and quick loading / decreased stuttering, etc.
My personal Mixing style (and what the crowd at the club I play at expect) is some looping and quick mixing playing only 1 minute to 2 minutes of each video. This leaves you limited time to beat-match, select your next video, load it (quickly), sample it, re-select if needed, and beat-match again. This again and in my opinion requires the trade-off I described. Since in this scenario you have the majority of the crowd dancing and only glancing at the video, super high quality video may not be the absolute answer.
As you can see, this is not a question of how cheap Hard Drives have become. Many DJs may not have access to a Super fast computer with a super fast Video card with a super fast “whatever”.
What I feel this is about is: Decreasing the propensity of ending up embarrassed because VDJ experienced a minor or major hiccup.
Food for thought.
Posted Thu 20 Dec 07 @ 8:41 am
Ian Knowles
No brainer
4:3 as thats most projectors standard
output at 1024x756
Video size 512x384 for 2 reasons (A) it is exactly half of the output to projector so will look better than 720x576 or 640x480 which some lines will take up 2 pixels and some one, with some anti-aliasing in between. b) it goes hand in hand with motion codecs which use 16x16 blocks i.e. both divisible by 16)
Use a motion codec mpeg-2 or mpeg-4 (h264) seams to becoming standard and will load faster and put less into ram (less chance of crashing) and contrary to most urban legends isn't that cpu hungry
as for audio 256kbps at 48khz is best trade off between size,speed,bit-rate and quality...
4:3 as thats most projectors standard
output at 1024x756
Video size 512x384 for 2 reasons (A) it is exactly half of the output to projector so will look better than 720x576 or 640x480 which some lines will take up 2 pixels and some one, with some anti-aliasing in between. b) it goes hand in hand with motion codecs which use 16x16 blocks i.e. both divisible by 16)
Use a motion codec mpeg-2 or mpeg-4 (h264) seams to becoming standard and will load faster and put less into ram (less chance of crashing) and contrary to most urban legends isn't that cpu hungry
as for audio 256kbps at 48khz is best trade off between size,speed,bit-rate and quality...
Posted Thu 20 Dec 07 @ 10:01 am
digijoc-Mele
Diamond G makes an interesting point but can be taken in different ways.... although I agree for the most part. On one hand I truly believe that in a club scenario, video is more of an ambiance, much like the light show is. So a grainy video could almost seem like an FX and the dancing crowd don't give a damn if it is HD quality or not.
On the other hand, an up-scale event where there is more socializing going on, lots of big video monitors and there is no fog and light show, your video quality could be an issue. I think the point that Cyder makes is that you can have better quality at the same or smaller file size with MPEG4 and you have nothing to loose if you carry the best quality regardless of the event.
The bigger problem in my mind which Rick eluded to is, how the heck do I re-rip all of the crap I already ripped, especially when I can't find some of the original DVDs. *sigh*
On the other hand, an up-scale event where there is more socializing going on, lots of big video monitors and there is no fog and light show, your video quality could be an issue. I think the point that Cyder makes is that you can have better quality at the same or smaller file size with MPEG4 and you have nothing to loose if you carry the best quality regardless of the event.
The bigger problem in my mind which Rick eluded to is, how the heck do I re-rip all of the crap I already ripped, especially when I can't find some of the original DVDs. *sigh*
Posted Thu 20 Dec 07 @ 9:56 pm
DJ Cyder
Thing is once a core library is ripped to say vob (mpeg-2) There is no need to ripp again only convert. Since Rick and I receive similar source material which falls under the dvd standard described above we have a unique opportunity to try new codecs with nothing to loose. I've tried them all and been disappointed every time until I saw h.264 in action. Its so close to mpeg-2 its almost scary and the files sizes are great, with visual hub I can encode a batch of test mp4s and compare them to the source file (vob) most of the time they look the same on my test rig. The differences are so small then unless you are really looking you would never know unless then is a ton of black in the video I've noticed.
Posted Thu 20 Dec 07 @ 11:04 pm
l_rids
I'm no video guru but I downloaded some music video clips on my ps3 from the playstation store online and they were all mp4 format. All of them were around 30 megs and approx 3mins long.
I have a bunch of videos which I've ripped all standard vob format. Typical size is 120-150megs.
I'm a bit dumbfounded but the mp4 clips seem better quality/or at least equally as good than the videos I've got.
Mp4 format is available is SD, 720p or 1080p.... more options than mpeg2
I have a bunch of videos which I've ripped all standard vob format. Typical size is 120-150megs.
I'm a bit dumbfounded but the mp4 clips seem better quality/or at least equally as good than the videos I've got.
Mp4 format is available is SD, 720p or 1080p.... more options than mpeg2
Posted Mon 07 Jan 08 @ 7:30 pm