Sound&Silence
Hi all,
ok, yes I know, wireless headphones introduce a latency to the signal and therefore they are not recommended to use them when mixing.
However I am wondering if it would be possible to make up this latency so that Master Output and Headphones are in sync again. In theory it should be possible to "add" a delay of 200 ms (or whatever the latency of the headphones are) to the Master Output. Is that doable in some way?
Any ideas?
ok, yes I know, wireless headphones introduce a latency to the signal and therefore they are not recommended to use them when mixing.
However I am wondering if it would be possible to make up this latency so that Master Output and Headphones are in sync again. In theory it should be possible to "add" a delay of 200 ms (or whatever the latency of the headphones are) to the Master Output. Is that doable in some way?
Any ideas?
Posted Sat 10 Sep 22 @ 11:28 pm
wickedmix
if you just use the master/cue mix knob on the headphones and are able to ignore the master output you could prob just do it that way......
otherwise i wouldn't bother
otherwise i wouldn't bother
Posted Sun 11 Sep 22 @ 12:31 am
Sound&Silence
Thanks.
I think I found a solution. It requires a combination of Loopback and Audio Hijack. In the latter app, I can configure a delay in the output. However, I am not sure if I should rely on this combination of routing when performing. I would prefer a. VDJ internal solution, if it exists.
I think I found a solution. It requires a combination of Loopback and Audio Hijack. In the latter app, I can configure a delay in the output. However, I am not sure if I should rely on this combination of routing when performing. I would prefer a. VDJ internal solution, if it exists.
Posted Sun 11 Sep 22 @ 7:22 am
PhantomDeejay
The main problem here is that when you introduce a significant amount of delay your brain gets confused,
That's because it has to "remember" that it will hear everything it does later, or that it has to perform several actions sooner than anticipated.
Let's take an extreme scenario of 1000ms (1 sec) delay.
Your brain has to "remember" that in order to press "play" on the second deck and have it somewhat aligned correctly with the first one, it needs to do it 1 second sooner than it hears the sound.
If you do it on the "same time" you hear the kick of the first track (as you would typically do) then the second track comes 1 whole second delayed and you need to nudge it backwards 1000ms
Also, while the tracks are "out of sync" and you use the jog to pitch bend one of them and align them properly, your brain needs to remember that whatever it does, it will hear its result one second later.
So, imagine this:
You hear the first track play on master delayed by 1000ms.
You start the second deck, but because of the delay (and human imperfections on timing) you need to use the jog to align the second deck with the first one.
You start moving the jog and you stop moving it when you hear that both tracks are in sync. Right ?
Well.. NO. Because the sound you hear is delayed by one second. Thus, by the time you hear the "perfect sync/alignment) there has been another 1 second that passed and you were still moving the jog.
Therefore, once you hear the perfect sync and let the jog go, the track will go out of sync again as you were still moving the jog when tracks were in perfect sync for a whole second more!
Now this is an extreme example (1000ms / 1sec) but shows why big latency/delay is not a viable option.
The only way to get around this is to "play by the eyes" by looking at the waveforms and trusting 100% the CBG and all the sync automations of (any) software.
If you want "wireless" headphones then I would suggest you to avoid Bluetooth headphones and get a wireless IEM (In Ear Monitor) system.
Depending on the brand and the model these things can easily achieve latency down to 4ms which is nothing compared to how our brain interprets things.
I use a relatively cheap wireless IEM system for 7 maybe 8 years now and I never had any latency issues with it.
I can only imagine how much better it would be if I was going to invest on a higher end system like Shure/Sennheiser e.t.c.
That's because it has to "remember" that it will hear everything it does later, or that it has to perform several actions sooner than anticipated.
Let's take an extreme scenario of 1000ms (1 sec) delay.
Your brain has to "remember" that in order to press "play" on the second deck and have it somewhat aligned correctly with the first one, it needs to do it 1 second sooner than it hears the sound.
If you do it on the "same time" you hear the kick of the first track (as you would typically do) then the second track comes 1 whole second delayed and you need to nudge it backwards 1000ms
Also, while the tracks are "out of sync" and you use the jog to pitch bend one of them and align them properly, your brain needs to remember that whatever it does, it will hear its result one second later.
So, imagine this:
You hear the first track play on master delayed by 1000ms.
You start the second deck, but because of the delay (and human imperfections on timing) you need to use the jog to align the second deck with the first one.
You start moving the jog and you stop moving it when you hear that both tracks are in sync. Right ?
Well.. NO. Because the sound you hear is delayed by one second. Thus, by the time you hear the "perfect sync/alignment) there has been another 1 second that passed and you were still moving the jog.
Therefore, once you hear the perfect sync and let the jog go, the track will go out of sync again as you were still moving the jog when tracks were in perfect sync for a whole second more!
Now this is an extreme example (1000ms / 1sec) but shows why big latency/delay is not a viable option.
The only way to get around this is to "play by the eyes" by looking at the waveforms and trusting 100% the CBG and all the sync automations of (any) software.
If you want "wireless" headphones then I would suggest you to avoid Bluetooth headphones and get a wireless IEM (In Ear Monitor) system.
Depending on the brand and the model these things can easily achieve latency down to 4ms which is nothing compared to how our brain interprets things.
I use a relatively cheap wireless IEM system for 7 maybe 8 years now and I never had any latency issues with it.
I can only imagine how much better it would be if I was going to invest on a higher end system like Shure/Sennheiser e.t.c.
Posted Sun 11 Sep 22 @ 7:13 pm
Sound&Silence
Thanks PhantomDJ, I agree and see your point.
The situation for me is a bit different. Being a dance teacher I dont use beat matching that often. My goal was to minimize my setup when traveling. I found using Airpods Pro might be worth a try. I noticed they only have a latency of 80ms, at least that is the delay I have to set Audio Hijack to to hear headphone and master output in sync.
I will give it a try, but I am not overly optimistic. It's a lot to configure and the chances of errors rise with the complexity.
The situation for me is a bit different. Being a dance teacher I dont use beat matching that often. My goal was to minimize my setup when traveling. I found using Airpods Pro might be worth a try. I noticed they only have a latency of 80ms, at least that is the delay I have to set Audio Hijack to to hear headphone and master output in sync.
I will give it a try, but I am not overly optimistic. It's a lot to configure and the chances of errors rise with the complexity.
Posted Mon 12 Sep 22 @ 6:09 am
Adion
I use Bluetooth headphones often myself including beat-mixing.
In places where the music is not too loud, I find that just putting on the headphones on both ears and doing beatmatching and start of the mix in the headphones works fine.
As suggested you can use the cue/master mixing levels for that, but I find that the small cue-crossfader as found on the DJM-S9/S11 works pretty well for this purpose too.
In places where the music is not too loud, I find that just putting on the headphones on both ears and doing beatmatching and start of the mix in the headphones works fine.
As suggested you can use the cue/master mixing levels for that, but I find that the small cue-crossfader as found on the DJM-S9/S11 works pretty well for this purpose too.
Posted Mon 12 Sep 22 @ 6:43 am