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Topic: Virtual DJ 8 BPM issue - Page: 1
Hi all,

I use VDJ 8 and have noticed that on a lot of my tracks the BPM counter is completely wrong. The peaks of songs start on like beat two or beat three of the bar instead of beat 1.

I have re analylised my track set BPMs but they are still out. I didn't have any issues on VDJ 7 with this.

Any ideas? I may ahvhave to go back to VDJ 7...

Thanks.

Posted Sat 07 Jan 17 @ 1:44 pm
Please provide (name) a few example tracks so other people can check/compare.

Posted Sat 07 Jan 17 @ 1:56 pm
SerinePRO InfinityMember since 2013
I have this constantly.

The bpm itself is usually correct but I'd say 90% of tracks where the first beat is not very close to the start of the song have incorrect detection of the first beat in the bar.

In many cases the first beat marker is actually before the start of the track (and always incorrect).

Even when the first beat in the bar has been detected "correctly" VDJ will often give a BPM of 170.004, which means that the beatgrid is incorrect at either the end or beginning of the track.

My "solution" has been to manually beatgrid every one of my 2000 files. I'm sure I could dig some out if you think this is a fixable issue - I thought it was just because automatic beat detection isn't possible (but why tf allow placing of the first beat before the track begins and why not force rounding of BPMs, at least as an option?).


Here is an example: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59869575/Through%20My%20Mind.mp3

Detected BPM 140.007 (actual 70.000 - I can forgive the doubling but +0.007?) and first beat detected about 1.5 beats after the actual first beat.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59869575/Broken%20%28Culture%20Code%20Remix%29.mp3

Detected first beat is one beat before the start of the song and detected BPM is 142.992 when it should be 143 (again actually 71.5 but again I'm not bothered by that as it's understandable and easy to fix).

Both these were free downloads so no copyright issue.(?)

2: https://soundcloud.com/culturecode/young-london-broken-cc-remix



Posted Sat 07 Jan 17 @ 5:02 pm
Serine, when you say that tracks are "actually" 70 BPM exactly, or "actually" 71.5 - where are you getting that info?

Did you measure the BPM yourself somehow? Use another DJ software or MIK etc? Or was it marked as that tempo on the CD or the web site where you got it?

What I mean is, how can you be certain that the BPM really is "actually" what you say?

Besides, it's never a good idea to rely totally on what some automated system says the BPM is. Use your ears when mixing two tracks together, and make adjustments as necessary. It's part of being a DJ :-)

Posted Sat 07 Jan 17 @ 5:22 pm
SerinePRO InfinityMember since 2013
Have a look at the tracks I put there - when you manually adjust the beatgrid it's very obvious that 70.000 fits the real beatgrid better than 70.006 or whatever.

I am almost exclusively mixing modern, digitally produced electronic music so it's very easy to determine the bpm quite precisely and almost all producers will select their BPM.

I am without a doubt not as good a DJ as you and I don't have as much time as I'd like to practice as I only play at home so I am probably more dependent on the automatic BPM detection than I should be.

Posted Sat 07 Jan 17 @ 8:14 pm
My issue is with the BOm counter at the top. The first beat of the bar is sometimes not on the first beat of BPM counter thing. It shows as the first beat on like bar three or something different. I can mix without it, but at the end of the day, I would expect all the features available to me to actually work.

I have just done a gig with it and on a few songs I hadn't played before, I had to guess where the beats where etc. I am now going back down to VDJ 7 as I really need the BPM counter to be accurate. I see a hell lot of posts about similar issues with the BPM counter etc and nothing seems to have actually been fixed. I think VDJ really needs to go back and have a look what's going on and actually fix it.


Posted Sat 07 Jan 17 @ 11:10 pm
That's not a BPM counter. It's described in the manual as a "beat keeper". As you say, it's supposed to indicate beats in a bar. 1, 2, 3, 4.

It works from the CBG, so if the CBG doesn't have the "one" indicator in the right place, the beat keeper will not know where "one" is. How well it works when you're further into a track, I don't know - because I don't rely on it. There are other reasons why it might be out too, such as the way the track is produced or edited. There could be sections that don't strictly adhere to 4/4 or to 4, 8 or 16 bar phrases - for artistic reasons etc.

I've been DJing long enough to not even think about 1, 2, 3, 4. I just instinctively feel/know it, by ear.

Like many things available to us now, it's a guide. There to assist you, not to replace your ears and brain.

Posted Sun 08 Jan 17 @ 12:53 pm
SerinePRO InfinityMember since 2013
Speaking as someone who does use it - if the track has been digitally produced and quantized, the CBG will remain accurate through the whole song once it is manually set.

The automatic detection feature is broken. You can defend it as being a "guideline" or "real dj's don't need it" and you'd be right, but as a feature, it is not working.

I also have a vague memory of it being better in VDJ7 but I'm not sure as I bit the bullet and decided to do it manually. It wasn't in one long slug as I use vdj to listen to my tracks at work and can make adjustments if I need to but I imagine it would be a painful task for someone who does need it and is starting afresh.

Posted Sun 08 Jan 17 @ 7:16 pm
AdionPRO InfinityCTOMember since 2006
Did you try re-analyze with the build 3523?
The first track is detected as exactly 140 for me.

The second track is detected slightly off a round bpm, but checking the grid at the start and at the end of the song, this does actually seem better than when manually changing it. In that case it seems to be drifting further from the beat start near the end of the song.

Finding the first beat of a measure is indeed not perfect, but even this is on average better than in v7.

Posted Sun 08 Jan 17 @ 9:14 pm
SerinePRO InfinityMember since 2013
I'm actually using build 3543 but I have been seeing this problem all the time I've been using V8, when I was using stable releases only and now.

I have major problems with first beat detection for perhaps 15-25% tracks in my library, slight first beat issues with a further 60-80% of tracks and and off-round BPM issues for probably 75% of tracks.

Posted Sun 08 Jan 17 @ 9:37 pm
Hi everybody, I have reported this problem long time ago, yes the bpm is not accurate and cbg are not grid properly I was thinking that is a problem with the track how they have been recorded but I have tried in another dj software same songs same cue points same mix and it was ok!
so it's not down to the recordings ( how the song has been recorded )

Posted Mon 09 Jan 17 @ 10:43 am
Hey fellas, thats what beat tap is for. If the bpm is correct, just nudge the downbeat or where you want it to be considered the beginning,
to the cursor line hit beat tap and it will set the first beat putting the beat counter in phase with the track. If the bpm is wrong just tap the beat in.

Posted Mon 09 Jan 17 @ 11:07 am
Yeah I have to do that a lot, though a significant proportion of my music is old Stax and Motown songs, which no beat detection is ever going to get right. That said, its not really that important to have a correct CBg for them, because you are never going to be trying to beat match them.

Posted Mon 09 Jan 17 @ 11:10 am
SerinePRO InfinityMember since 2013
Djratedxxx919 wrote :
Hey fellas, thats what beat tap is for. If the bpm is correct, just nudge the downbeat or where you want it to be considered the beginning,
to the cursor line hit beat tap and it will set the first beat putting the beat counter in phase with the track. If the bpm is wrong just tap the beat in.


Like I said, the problem is not that I don't understand how to do it manually, it's that I have to do it manually at all.

VDJ is a masterpiece of software and it's possibly the only piece of software I've ever paid for so I'm not saying it's bad, and nobody needs to make excuses or tell me how to do it manually. I'm just saying that as someone who DJ's for fun and so has not got enough skill to work purely by ear in real time, this one feature is not reliable enough to use.

Posted Mon 09 Jan 17 @ 11:25 am
Actually for MODERN music that's produced with a computer and has a steady tempo, computer calculated BPM values are much safer than manual BPM adjustment. Even if automatic BPM calculation gives out values like 120.01
What people don't usually get is that producers don't always use a "round" BPM for their production.
Also different gear will have a different clock system that may give such small variations in timing (especially for long tracks)
Mastering a production is also one of the factors that may alter the "perfectly round" BPM.
Usually productions are created on higher sample rates than mastered release versions. Therefore the final version has to be resampled. Depending on the structure of the original production the final release may have a small fluctuation or shift on the timing of the beats since resampling procedure "re-arranges" the samples of the audio. Not to mention of course that a Mastering Studio may select to alter the overall pitch/tempo of a song!
Perfect round BPM values are NOT that common even for EDM productions.

Finally most of the "non-official/studio" remixes don't have a round tempo even if the original song has one.
Besides altering the overall tempo on a lot of these remixes, a slightly wrong adjustment of a sample on the timeline is capable enough to throw the final overall BPM off.
So, unless you can count a track against a metronome and you can understand difference in 0.001 BPM don't assume that BPM counter is wrong. It usually means that something in the production/mastering/remixing process didn't went as actually planned.
And that is VERY COMMON in music production of every genre!

Posted Mon 09 Jan 17 @ 1:28 pm
SerinePRO InfinityMember since 2013
Can I set up a screen sharing session with you so I can show you what I mean? I 100% agree with you and you are correct, but in the specific instances I am coming across, the automatically detected grid is wrong. Be it 140.009 or 140.5489348, it is not usable because it does not match whatever the actual produced BPM is.

It is clear when listening against a metronome, when syncing with other tracks and when viewing the waveform.


I can also provide screenshots if you are unwilling to view it in real time?

Posted Mon 09 Jan 17 @ 5:38 pm
There's no need to "prove" a case against me.
I'm just stating a few facts for those that don't know them and they expect every track to has a completely round BPM.
One of our lead developers (Adion) is already familiar with your issue, and it's his call to investigate further and/or do any adjustments to the software if he thinks they are needed.

Posted Mon 09 Jan 17 @ 6:45 pm
Andy7689 wrote :
old Stax and Motown songs
you are never going to be trying to beat match them

Actually it's not beyond reach!

As far as I know, no DJ software does it yet, but Ableton Live can "warp" old tracks like that and correct (straighten) the BPM, making it possible to beat mix them, add your own touches (a bit more percussion or a more modern beat) and so on.

It's a two stage process if you want to play your warped tracks in VDJ - correct them in Live first then add them to VDJ - but it's better than nothing.

Ideally it would be possible to do this in VDJ (now that would be a killer feature that would leave the competition standing) but we're not there yet.


Posted Mon 09 Jan 17 @ 6:56 pm
SerinePRO InfinityMember since 2013
PhantomDeejay wrote :
I'm just stating a few facts for those that don't know them and they expect every track to has a completely round BPM.
One of our lead developers (Adion) is already familiar with your issue, and it's his call to investigate further and/or do any adjustments to the software if he thinks they are needed.


Ah sorry, I misinterpreted your post. I look forward to hearing more - I would enjoy if this feature worked and I'm certain that Home users who are yet to commit and new to DJing will find it even more important that this feature works.


Posted Mon 09 Jan 17 @ 8:02 pm
SerinePRO InfinityMember since 2013
Just in case it is useful:
This image shows a typical attempt at automatic detection of a beat grid. As you can probably imagine, the first beat is actually where you can see the beat. What it's actually selected is a piece of vocal sample.

This second image shows the eighth "beat" in the image which might be what it's trying to detect in this track, except it's not detected that well either.

Posted Mon 09 Jan 17 @ 10:49 pm
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