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Topic: Key Detection Issues - Page: 1

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djdonnPRO InfinityMember since 2006
Hello. I rely fairly heavily on using the song key to help me mix. I know it's been said that 8 has better key detection than 7, and I believe it did when 8 first came out. However, lately, the key detection is extremely inaccurate.

I just downloaded 80 songs from Xtendamix, mostly 70's stuff. I did a sampling of 44 songs to see which VDJ detected the correct key and which it did not. Out of 44 songs, 22 were detected correctly and 22 were not.

That's a 50% accuracy rate. That's not very good.

The key detection is only slightly more accurate on newer music, but still not much better than about 60%.

I'm not sure what the issue is, and I know it's not a big priority for most dj's, however if the feature is there, it should work better than half the time. Can someone take a look at this, please?
 

Posted Fri 01 Mar 19 @ 8:41 pm
blckjckPRO InfinityMember since 2008
Can you give some sample songs? Also, what did you compare it to for the wrong key determination.
 

Posted Fri 01 Mar 19 @ 9:08 pm
No software are 100% accurate, music itself is not even an exact science. Not every song in the world has one true key, and musicians and musical theorists disagree very loudly over whether a particular tune was major or minor, this or that key...

At a big survey VirtualDJ was around 65% correct, better than most others ( Traktor at 54%, Recordbox at 57% etc.., while Mixed In Key was higher, around 70%).

But always room for possible improvements, and would be cool if you could list your 80 songs with the keys detected here:)
For comparisons, and likely even debate since human ears cant even agree on a key often :)

(that is if you compared against your own ears, and not xtendamix tags, they are likely not correct, even Beatport is not )
 

Posted Fri 01 Mar 19 @ 9:11 pm
djdonnPRO InfinityMember since 2006
blckjck wrote :
Can you give some sample songs? Also, what did you compare it to for the wrong key determination.


Here's one: Blue Oyster Cult - Don't Fear The Reaper. VDJ says G (major), or 9B on the Camelot Wheel. It's actually Am, or 8A on the Camelot Wheel.

I use a pitch pipe and my own ears.
 

Posted Fri 01 Mar 19 @ 10:11 pm
blckjckPRO InfinityMember since 2008
djdonn wrote :
Here's one: Blue Oyster Cult - Don't Fear The Reaper. VDJ says G (major), or 9B on the Camelot Wheel. It's actually Am, or 8A on the Camelot Wheel.
I use a pitch pipe and my own ears.


If you comparing it with your own ears, I would recommend editing the key your self.

A web search shows 3 different sites listing that song in 3 different keys.
Maybe try mixed in key and see if it compares to your ear as well.
 

Posted Fri 01 Mar 19 @ 10:19 pm
djdonnPRO InfinityMember since 2006
Rune (dj-in-norway) wrote :
No software are 100% accurate, music itself is not even an exact science. Not every song in the world has one true key, and musicians and musical theorists disagree very loudly over whether a particular tune was major or minor, this or that key...

At a big survey VirtualDJ was around 65% correct, better than most others ( Traktor at 54%, Recordbox at 57% etc.., while Mixed In Key was higher, around 70%).

But always room for possible improvements, and would be cool if you could list your 80 songs with the keys detected here:)
For comparisons, and likely even debate since human ears cant even agree on a key often :)

(that is if you compared against your own ears, and not xtendamix tags, they are likely not correct, even Beatport is not )


Ehh.. most songs, especially older ones, the key is pretty obvious, and it doesn't change throughout the song. There's really not much argument when an artist writes a song in a particular key, and then when played back and compared to a pitch pipe, for example, that that's the key it was written in.

Xtendamix doesn't write the keys in their tags, nor does Promo Only or any other service that I know of, however, I'm not familiar with what all other services do.

I don't recall all the songs that were wrong in the 44 that I sampled, so here's a list of songs I just now checked. They're new songs from Promo Only.

Zedd & Katy Perry - 365. VDJ: Gm. Actual: Dm
Bruno Mars & Cardi B - Please Me (Clean Edit). VDJ: Bm. Actual: F#m
Dua Lipa - Swan Song. VDJ: A#. Actual: Cm
Chainsmokers f. 5 Seconds Of Summer - Who Do You Love. VDJ: Cm. Actual: Eb

Now, an argument had been made in the past that some songs are just 1 key off on the Camelot Wheel and that's ok because they'll fit with songs that are the correct key, but that's a lousy argument because that will throw off what mixes with songs that ARE keyed correctly.

My biggest thing is, it really seems like the key detection has gotten worse recently, say, within the last maybe year or so, maybe a little less. I'm wondering if something changed in the key detection software. If not, I'm really wondering why the detection seems to have degraded lately.
 

Posted Fri 01 Mar 19 @ 10:29 pm
djdonnPRO InfinityMember since 2006
blckjck wrote :


If you comparing it with your own ears, I would recommend editing the key your self.

A web search shows 3 different sites listing that song in 3 different keys.
Maybe try mixed in key and see if it compares to your ear as well.


I do edit the keys myself. I edit songs that I know I'm going to be mixing. I even carry a pitch pipe with me to events to check the key if I have to. I know, crazy right? And I'm not even that good of a mixer. But I know what I like to do and I know that I like to do harmonic mixing whenever I can; when the occasion calls for it.

That song has been recorded in at least 2 different keys, to my knowledge. Maybe that's the issue.

I don't want to sound pompous, but I'm pretty good at being able to tell what the key of a song is by comparing it to notes on a pitch pipe.

There does not appear to be a trial version of Mixed In Key. Not paying $58 to see how their software does.
 

Posted Fri 01 Mar 19 @ 11:05 pm
FYI for Blue Oyster Cult - Don't Fear The Reaper

Mixed is key says 9B 142 bpm for the copy i have

after testing with the built in keyboard in Mixed in key i would say the track is an 8A

maybe its juts one of those songs that most apps get wrong
 

Posted Sat 02 Mar 19 @ 12:30 am
djdonn wrote :
especially older ones, the key is pretty obvious, and it doesn't change throughout the song

I disagree. IMO it's much more likely for old songs to have more than one key and to have key changes.

Here's why:
In days of old, nearly all music was written and performed by actual songwriters & musicians using real instruments, playing together in recording studios.

They were skilled. They knew about composition, keys, chords, scales and so on.

They wrote songs with verses, choruses, bridges, middle eights, melody, harmony, key changes...


Nowadays someone can "write" a track on a smartphone by dragging their finger around the screen. Absolutely no skill involved. Others "write" by sampling someone elses work, looping it for five minutes and releasing it under their own name and title.

Bohemian Rhapsody progresses through four keys. Some of the stuff that passes for "music" these days is lucky to have one key!

Often tracks are so stripped down that it's hard for the software to make a decision due to the lack of different notes. If the content could fit into more than one key, it has to make a choice.





 

Posted Sat 02 Mar 19 @ 10:09 am
Would have to be your original 80 random tracks to get any sense of how much right/wrong. Cherry picking a few that got wrong, is less useful as far as percentage goes at least. (and since all software, even humans, gets some wrong ..)
But sure, even those cherry picked wrongs, are still worth a look.

I dont doubt the Blue Oyster Cult is what you say, but it doesnt take much look to see many saying differently..
http://www.songkeyfinder.com/songs/894/Blue+%C3%96yster+Cult+(Don't+Fear)+The+Reaper says C Major (8B, and harmnically to VDJ 9B) for example with 5 votes (human ears). Or A Major (11B) https://inwhatkey.com/song/don-t-fear-the-reaper-by-blue-oyster-cult etc
"Noone" gets keys 100% right all the time, no software (average score for different software seem around 50-60%), not even humans

That being said, its always worth looking for possible improvement of course, its just not such an easy thing, not like say BPM etc.
And specially so if something has changed, or gotten worse.

One KEY thing (no pun..hehe), to having best result, is using ONE software for detection, since when using one software you will get things equally right/wrong, and hence mostly be harmonically 'correct' relative to other songs analyzed by same algorithm. If you mix and match keys from different sources, its spaghetti, and higher chances of bad results comparatively to other songs in your collection.
 

Posted Sat 02 Mar 19 @ 1:32 pm
I just found an interview with Albert Bouchard (BOC drummer) in which he states that DFTR is Am, and that also ties in with the sheet music I found online.

Both VDJ and MIK say it's G, which does have a lot in common note and chord wise, but the Am key uses an F chord (FAC) and the G key uses F#AC.
 

Posted Sat 02 Mar 19 @ 2:50 pm
djdonnPRO InfinityMember since 2006
Rune (dj-in-norway) wrote :
Would have to be your original 80 random tracks to get any sense of how much right/wrong. Cherry picking a few that got wrong, is less useful as far as percentage goes at least. (and since all software, even humans, gets some wrong ..)
But sure, even those cherry picked wrongs, are still worth a look.

I dont doubt the Blue Oyster Cult is what you say, but it doesnt take much look to see many saying differently..
http://www.songkeyfinder.com/songs/894/Blue+%C3%96yster+Cult+(Don't+Fear)+The+Reaper says C Major (8B, and harmnically to VDJ 9B) for example with 5 votes (human ears). Or A Major (11B) https://inwhatkey.com/song/don-t-fear-the-reaper-by-blue-oyster-cult etc
"Noone" gets keys 100% right all the time, no software (average score for different software seem around 50-60%), not even humans

That being said, its always worth looking for possible improvement of course, its just not such an easy thing, not like say BPM etc.
And specially so if something has changed, or gotten worse.

One KEY thing (no pun..hehe), to having best result, is using ONE software for detection, since when using one software you will get things equally right/wrong, and hence mostly be harmonically 'correct' relative to other songs analyzed by same algorithm. If you mix and match keys from different sources, its spaghetti, and higher chances of bad results comparatively to other songs in your collection.


Rune, let's ignore the '80' song number because it really doesn't matter for purposes of this discussion. Let's concentrate on, "out of 44 tracks sampled, 22 were wrong". 50% wrong. And it's been about 50% wrong for months.

I only use VDJ for key detection, then correct the wrong ones with a pitch pipe and my own ears. I'm not saying I'm anywhere near perfect when it comes to choosing the correct key, but I know I do much, much better than 50%.

Anyway, my objective is to see if the VDJ developers are willing to take another look at the key detection, hopefully acknowledge that there is an issue and take steps to improve. I'm certainly willing to invest time in helping any way I can.
 

Posted Sat 02 Mar 19 @ 5:25 pm
djdonnPRO InfinityMember since 2006
groovindj wrote :
djdonn wrote :
especially older ones, the key is pretty obvious, and it doesn't change throughout the song

I disagree. IMO it's much more likely for old songs to have more than one key and to have key changes.

Here's why:
In days of old, nearly all music was written and performed by actual songwriters & musicians using real instruments, playing together in recording studios.

They were skilled. They knew about composition, keys, chords, scales and so on.

They wrote songs with verses, choruses, bridges, middle eights, melody, harmony, key changes...

Nowadays someone can "write" a track on a smartphone by dragging their finger around the screen. Absolutely no skill involved. Others "write" by sampling someone elses work, looping it for five minutes and releasing it under their own name and title.

Bohemian Rhapsody progresses through four keys. Some of the stuff that passes for "music" these days is lucky to have one key!

Often tracks are so stripped down that it's hard for the software to make a decision due to the lack of different notes. If the content could fit into more than one key, it has to make a choice.


The majority of music dj's play is pretty simply structured. Yes, there are songs with key changes etc but for those those that are clearly in the same key throughout the song are the ones I'm most concerned about. And those are the ones that VDJ is getting right only half the time.

BoRhap isn't a song I'm concerned with the key. I'm concerned with having the correct keys of songs I'm going to mix for dancing or for cocktail or dinner or other themed playlists.
 

Posted Sat 02 Mar 19 @ 6:45 pm
djdonn wrote :

BoRhap isn't a song I'm concerned with the key


Merely used as an example of a well known track with several keys. There are certainly other more dancefloor friendly tracks that also have key changes, time signature changes and so on.

Unfortunately DJ software always assumes a track only has one tempo, one key, one time signature. It's unfortunate but what can we do? People have mentioned it here before but nothing changes.

 

Posted Sat 02 Mar 19 @ 7:51 pm
groovindj wrote :
People have mentioned it here before but nothing changes.


I dont know if you just need to go out see the sun more, or if you are just a very negative minded person :-)
VirtualDJ, as you are aware, makes tons of improvements and fixes non stop.. and even if your favorite is not yet there, others favorite requests are ;-) Besides, VirtualDJ has both added and for a long time had bpm for more than one tempo, via bpm editor https://www.virtualdj.com/manuals/virtualdj/editors/bpmeditor.html

If anything, VirtualDJ listens to and adds features users want, more than any other software, by far.... its rather what VirtualDJ is popular and known for :)
 

Posted Sat 02 Mar 19 @ 10:11 pm
Yes, things get added now and again - but also a lot of things don't. Things that users have been asking for over and over again.

Not being negative particularly. Just stating facts.

 

Posted Sat 02 Mar 19 @ 11:48 pm
djdonn wrote :
Anyway, my objective is to see if the VDJ developers are willing to take another look at the key detection, hopefully acknowledge that there is an issue and take steps to improve. I'm certainly willing to invest time in helping any way I can.


I don't think the key detection is build by Atomix for VDJ

Those kind of algorithms (BPM detection, time streatching - things like that) are usually based on only a handful of available software libraries made by companies that only make that.
For instance I believe all DJ software except Serato use zplane’s élastiquePro for time stretching
So if it's the same for key detection, the only thing Atomix can really do is wait for a new/better version to come out, and then replace the current one
But as stated: Noone is really above 2/3 correct detection ATM
 

Posted Sun 03 Mar 19 @ 1:41 pm
AdionPRO InfinityCTOMember since 2006
No, both key and bpm detection are done by us.
There has not been any significant change to the key detection since v8 release, so results should be the same since then.
 

Posted Sun 03 Mar 19 @ 2:08 pm
Adion wrote :
No, both key and bpm detection are done by us.
There has not been any significant change to the key detection since v8 release, so results should be the same since then.

Ok, so I was totally wrong on that one :)
 

Posted Sun 03 Mar 19 @ 2:39 pm
kurbs75Home userMember since 2020
I can say I was shocked at the bad key detection. I am a musician of a few different instruments and a song writer. Alot of what has been said is true. I am loking playing with my recently acquired dj controller and am now looking for a dj program to use as my main. So far, Serato is fantastic at detecting the correct cord progressions, so much so that I love ripping out my guitar and playing along,, Traktor seems to be ok but dj8 seems to be very bad. It makes djing unfun. I dont want to go into Serato. They are money grabbing horses, Traktor seems too difficult to program my controller. Please make dj8 fantastic. If Serato ca do it the surely virtual dj can
 

Posted Wed 05 Aug 20 @ 11:26 am
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