Thelema
Now, I don't know music theory, and so all those letters and numbers are a bit confusing for me. I've taken a look at the Camelot System chart, and I'm sort of starting to have a better grasp of how it works, but I could use a few hints, especially when it comes to mixing Trance tunes.
I've recently discovered that, by right-clicking the playlist bar, I could add a couple of things to the bar itself, including Key (numeric) and Bitrate. What I want to know is: in the end, what numbers and letters are acceptable to mix into other numbers and letters? Is anything in the A 'section' good to go, or do specific numbers have to go with specific numbers?
Thanks.
edit: just read this:
Here’s how it works: You find the key of the tune you’re currently playing on the wheel, and you can mix any tune into it that is the same key, or an adjacent key on the wheel. So you can move left or right one segment, or in or out one segment (you can’t move diagonally). These mixes will sound great, because the keys are the same or related.
Also, a technical issue: if I activate Keylock on my Numark Mixtrack Pro, it causes the mix to lose audio quality, sometimes making some of the beats come out muffled. How can I fix this?
I've recently discovered that, by right-clicking the playlist bar, I could add a couple of things to the bar itself, including Key (numeric) and Bitrate. What I want to know is: in the end, what numbers and letters are acceptable to mix into other numbers and letters? Is anything in the A 'section' good to go, or do specific numbers have to go with specific numbers?
Thanks.
edit: just read this:
Here’s how it works: You find the key of the tune you’re currently playing on the wheel, and you can mix any tune into it that is the same key, or an adjacent key on the wheel. So you can move left or right one segment, or in or out one segment (you can’t move diagonally). These mixes will sound great, because the keys are the same or related.
Also, a technical issue: if I activate Keylock on my Numark Mixtrack Pro, it causes the mix to lose audio quality, sometimes making some of the beats come out muffled. How can I fix this?
Posted Fri 08 Jun 12 @ 7:59 pm
jusblaze246
So here's the deal...REALLY SIMPLE.......Almost everything "modern music-wise or popular music-wise) is going to be in a Minor Key ie. "A" on the wheel. Any song mixed into another will sound "better" or be somewhat harmonic if they are mixed with a song that falls onto either side of the wheel to the one that is playing....Example: Current song: "A8" a song like A7 or A9 would be ideal....Something like A4 or A2 would not mix well (Harmonically) with a track in A8........hope this helps......So as you work your set you can gradually work up and down the Wheel, one song at a time.......
Posted Fri 08 Jun 12 @ 8:51 pm
Thelema
Awesome, thanks!
Posted Fri 08 Jun 12 @ 9:45 pm
Speedy53
Also, you can sort your songs by key number and BPM, it will let the things easier than they are.
About the keylock you can improve the master tempo algorithm quality to advanced at performace tab, it may fix the beats issues.
About the keylock you can improve the master tempo algorithm quality to advanced at performace tab, it may fix the beats issues.
Posted Sat 09 Jun 12 @ 1:57 am
LittleHoody
Also mixing two numbers above your current key (eg. mixing an song in 10A into your song at 8A) seems to work quite well for the vast majority of songs. Read this:
http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/
http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/
Posted Sat 09 Jun 12 @ 2:56 am
groovindj
jusblaze246 wrote :
Almost everything "modern music-wise or popular music-wise) is going to be in a Minor Key
No, this is an incorrect statement/assumption.
Music is (and always has been) in both major and minor keys. Generally speaking, major keys sound 'happy' and minor keys sound 'sad'.
Unfortunately some software is programmed to be biased towards minor keys instead of detecting them 'honestly'.
This can of course lead to problems. If you have two songs which the biased s/w displays as Am, but in fact one of them is A, your mix won't work.
Posted Sat 09 Jun 12 @ 5:15 am
Speedy53
groovindj wrote :
Unfortunately some software is programmed to be biased towards minor keys instead of detecting them 'honestly'.
As our friend thelema I am unable to determine the song key just by listening. So I trust the software. I would like to know your opinion about the VirtualDJ performance concerning tones detection.
Posted Sat 09 Jun 12 @ 11:38 am
groovindj
I've just given my opinion!
It's a starting point, but obviously if it's biased towards minor keys it's not going to be as accurate as software that's unbiased.
I also use Mixed In Key, which gives more even results - but no software can ever be 100% trusted to get it right.
You can find reports & comparison tests online, where people have fed in known tracks and checked the results.
It's a starting point, but obviously if it's biased towards minor keys it's not going to be as accurate as software that's unbiased.
I also use Mixed In Key, which gives more even results - but no software can ever be 100% trusted to get it right.
You can find reports & comparison tests online, where people have fed in known tracks and checked the results.
Posted Sat 09 Jun 12 @ 12:06 pm
Support staff
Speedy53 wrote :
About the keylock you can improve the master tempo algorithm quality to advanced at performace tab, it may fix the beats issues.
The full VirtualDJ Pro is required to be able to do this. VirtualDJ LE is limited software and doesn't have this option, except during the 20 day Pro trial.
You can upgrade to the full VirtualDJ Pro at a discount by going to http://www.virtualdj.com/buy/index.html
Also, MP3e2 comes with VirtualDJ LE 6 - In VirtualDJ 7, there is a new improved advanced master tempo algorithm. You can try it out before upgrading using VirtualDJ Home FREE: http://www.virtualdj.com/products/homefree.html
Posted Sat 09 Jun 12 @ 12:44 pm
Speedy53
groovindj wrote :
I've just given my opinion!
Yes, and thats why I asked for details once I am really deaf when talking about identifying keys.
Thanks, your reply was really apreciated.
Posted Sat 09 Jun 12 @ 3:00 pm
Thelema
Thanks for your input, guys. I should have looked into this a long time ago, and now realize why some of my mixes sound 'weird' (as in, I was mixing without bearing in mind the importante of harmonic mixing).
Posted Sat 09 Jun 12 @ 4:23 pm
Chaos Stream
Hi, thought Id resurrect this thread as Im quite intrigued by Harmonic mixing and want to give it a go.
I understand the camelot wheel and how the segments relate to each other (1 - 12 A or B) but what Im not so sure on is how Virtual DJ is reading the keys and how to interpret the readings in terms of the camelot chart. Im getting the key information up in the browser and Im seeing keys that arent listed on the wheel, such as A sharp and D sharp ( Im presuming # means sharp), also everything is proceeded by a small "m" - how do you tell if this is a major or minor key? And Im sure not seeing anything that indicates a flat key.
I hope this kinda makes sense what Im trying to get at - Any suggestions?
I understand the camelot wheel and how the segments relate to each other (1 - 12 A or B) but what Im not so sure on is how Virtual DJ is reading the keys and how to interpret the readings in terms of the camelot chart. Im getting the key information up in the browser and Im seeing keys that arent listed on the wheel, such as A sharp and D sharp ( Im presuming # means sharp), also everything is proceeded by a small "m" - how do you tell if this is a major or minor key? And Im sure not seeing anything that indicates a flat key.
I hope this kinda makes sense what Im trying to get at - Any suggestions?
Posted Thu 28 Jun 12 @ 10:52 am
groovindj
A sharp is the same key as B flat (the black key between A & B on a keyboard). Similarly D sharp is E flat.
A small m means minor. So Am is A minor. A on its own is major.
Be aware that VDJ will give almost everything a minor key, as it's biased that way.
You can choose to display 'key' or 'key (numeric)' in the VDJ browser, and also switch between the types by double clicking 'key' on the deck when a track's loaded.
A small m means minor. So Am is A minor. A on its own is major.
Be aware that VDJ will give almost everything a minor key, as it's biased that way.
You can choose to display 'key' or 'key (numeric)' in the VDJ browser, and also switch between the types by double clicking 'key' on the deck when a track's loaded.
Posted Thu 28 Jun 12 @ 11:00 am
Chaos Stream
groovindj wrote :
A sharp is the same key as B flat (the black key between A & B on a keyboard). Similarly D sharp is E flat.
A small m means minor. So Am is A minor. A on its own is major.
Be aware that VDJ will give almost everything a minor key, as it's biased that way.
You can choose to display 'key' or 'key (numeric)' in the VDJ browser, and also switch between the types by double clicking 'key' on the deck when a track's loaded.
A small m means minor. So Am is A minor. A on its own is major.
Be aware that VDJ will give almost everything a minor key, as it's biased that way.
You can choose to display 'key' or 'key (numeric)' in the VDJ browser, and also switch between the types by double clicking 'key' on the deck when a track's loaded.
Fantastic! Thanks alot, I didnt know about the numeric key value and Ive just put it on in the browser and its all much clearer now. Kudos to you. Cant wait to try it out!
Posted Thu 28 Jun 12 @ 11:12 am
frd1963
LittleHoody wrote :
Also mixing two numbers above your current key (eg. mixing an song in 10A into your song at 8A) seems to work quite well for the vast majority of songs. Read this:
http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/
http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/
Hoody is correct, but be aware that 'mixing' 2 songs like this for any extended period of time will generally not sound all that great, especially if both melodies are obvious at those points in the songs (vocals, synths, bassline, etc.) What it is good for is slamming from one song to the other to give it an 'energy boost' like the key changes that the Black Eyed Peas use in most of their songs usually after the last verse, between 2 consecutive choruses. It gives a feel of 'bringing it to the next level,' so to speak.
I can't determining keys by ear either, but a key change is very obvious.
Posted Thu 28 Jun 12 @ 1:11 pm
gullum
groovindj wrote :
You can choose to display 'key' or 'key (numeric)' in the VDJ browser, and also switch between the types by double clicking 'key' on the deck when a track's loaded.
You can choose to display 'key' or 'key (numeric)' in the VDJ browser, and also switch between the types by double clicking 'key' on the deck when a track's loaded.
There really is not so much wrong with VDJ being biased as C major and A minor are the same scale. So any melody played in C major will be in perfect Harmonie with A minor. So VDJ will recognize C as Am and G as Em and so on. But it can sound wrong depending on song structure.
But I would say that with most EDM you should be quite safe.
Posted Thu 28 Jun 12 @ 7:03 pm
groovindj
gullum wrote :
I would say that with most EDM you should be quite safe.
But EDM is not the only music that DJs play.....
There are a huge amount of DJs who play 60s music, 70s music, rock, indie, even jazz and so on.
You mention the C vs Am thing, so there may be songs which are in C that get flagged as Am. What about songs which actually are in Am?
If you've got both C and Am being flagged as Am, then it causes issues because the genuine Am songs will mix with Dm and Em, but if you try and mix a song in C (but marked as Am) with Em or Dm it won't work.
Posted Fri 29 Jun 12 @ 4:06 am
gullum
groovindj wrote :
But EDM is not the only music that DJs play.....
There are a huge amount of DJs who play 60s music, 70s music, rock, indie, even jazz and so on.
You mention the C vs Am thing, so there may be songs which are in C that get flagged as Am. What about songs which actually are in Am?
If you've got both C and Am being flagged as Am, then it causes issues because the genuine Am songs will mix with Dm and Em, but if you try and mix a song in C (but marked as Am) with Em or Dm it won't work.
gullum wrote :
I would say that with most EDM you should be quite safe.
But EDM is not the only music that DJs play.....
There are a huge amount of DJs who play 60s music, 70s music, rock, indie, even jazz and so on.
You mention the C vs Am thing, so there may be songs which are in C that get flagged as Am. What about songs which actually are in Am?
If you've got both C and Am being flagged as Am, then it causes issues because the genuine Am songs will mix with Dm and Em, but if you try and mix a song in C (but marked as Am) with Em or Dm it won't work.
I totally agree with you that some styles can make it almost impossible to mix in key using VDJ suggestions. A jazz song can have some some odd keys in there Am6 4 0r 9 and not go a typical 3-4 cord round. Anyway I would suspect anyone DJ'ing Jazz to have an ear for music and not relay on a software. But with EDM it's often a Bass line and melody so the suggestion can help but If you can't hear it sounding wrong maybe that person should not DJ in key in the first place. Music(DJ'ing) is all about ears.
Posted Fri 29 Jun 12 @ 5:21 am
groovindj
gullum wrote :
maybe that person should not DJ in key in the first place. Music(DJ'ing) is all about ears.
Well the idea of having keys listed in the software is to make the task of selecting the next song easier.
To be able to see at a glance which songs will work and which songs won't.
If the software is displaying an incorrect key then it makes that task harder.
Posted Fri 29 Jun 12 @ 5:51 am
Alex728
my current favourite genre is also trance and my experience with mixing in key (though I've only started seriously doing this recently) is that whatever VDJ is showing is a useable reference point. I'm not a music theory expert so don't know if they keys shown are 100% spot on, but if you are mixing relative from one to another it works.
BTW I used to mix by ear until I saw this and the results weren't bad but using the camelot wheel has deifnitely improved the sound of my mixes..
BTW I used to mix by ear until I saw this and the results weren't bad but using the camelot wheel has deifnitely improved the sound of my mixes..
Posted Fri 29 Jun 12 @ 12:02 pm
